Server Help :: View topic - instead of banning the cheaters prevent the cheating

Server Help

Trash Talk - instead of banning the cheaters prevent the cheating

Anonymous - Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:25 pm
Post subject: instead of banning the cheaters prevent the cheating

some programers could make an app that would check the client binary for changes something like punkbuster theres also one for halflife, cant remember the name of it though. This could be updated unlike the continuum client which requires. It would take a client side program and a server side program. I'm not a programmer but im sure a programmer here could go into more detail about how this would work. We could get this included in the continuum download and have addition instructions on how to install/run the game. Wouldn't be more complicated then upgrading to pre .39 for the users.

Anonymous - Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:27 pm
Post subject:

might require source im not sure though. if it does then priitk should add this little feature into the install so the sscouncil could then do small updates to prevent cheating.

Cyan~Fire - Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:03 pm
Post subject:

Show me a proven case of someone cheating on Continuum and I'll consider your idea.

CypherJF - Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:17 pm
Post subject:

the sscouncil is a joke - even the members of it have told me "you think too highly of us". PriitK isn't going to do anything about it - he's got other things to take care of.

Anonymous - Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:36 pm
Post subject:

come to my zone. all i got to do is click a button..

blaine0002 - Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:04 pm
Post subject:

Cyan~Fire wrote:

Show me a proven case of someone cheating on Continuum and I'll consider your idea.

OMG I HAXr0 cnTINUUM! WATCH HERE i goO! *poo0f*

HAXd!

Purge - Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:27 pm
Post subject:

Memory poking is pretty "common".

Maverick - Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:16 am
Post subject: Re: instead of banning the cheaters prevent the cheating

psyphi wrote:

some programers could make an app that would check the client binary for changes something like punkbuster theres also one for halflife

Memory hacks can't be detected by scanning the files on the harddisk of continuum. It would be far better to see if another program is trying to access or change values of the Continuum process.
Still doesn't prevend map hacking though.

As CypherJF said, nothing will be done. So map hacking will stay possible for a long time. (I have already found a quite good solution to maphacking) Also I don't think any programmer would waste his time make something like that anti-cheat even if its possible.

Spyed - Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:21 am
Post subject:

Games which ban on Cd Key are much more effective then banning on IP. So if you get banned on Subspace it's much easier to bypass it if you have the knowledge then go out to the shop and buy another copy. I think Counter strike source is Cd key now.

50% Packetloss - Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:39 am
Post subject:

You have no idea how bans work. Only a *kill can be bypassed; if you get netbanned, you are never coming back unless you go buy a new comp and get another ISP.

All the current cheats can be corrected by a client update. Priitk will get around to it sooner or later so this thread is pointless. Punkbuster is crap, people get around it in thier sleep. I don't think there is a SScouncil anymore, just a group of people on a mailing list that get sent beta-test clients.

Cyan~Fire - Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:32 am
Post subject:

Most memory hacking can be caught using simple code in an ASSS module or something. Subgame tries with its security violations, but often doesn't detect enough.

The real undetectable stuff, like evading weapons packets and the like would be very hard to memory hack, to the point that it might even be easier to decrypt and block the packet. (And we all know how easy that is!)

Anonymous - Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:58 pm
Post subject:

We have several people in TW who are known to be evading Netbans.

Method, Deluge to name a couple...

Confess - Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:56 am
Post subject:

Who's the person that created/edited Continuum Pr3?

50% Packetloss - Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:39 am
Post subject:

Priitk.

http://www.skype.com/company/jobs/insiderview/priitkasesalu.html

D1st0rt - Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:31 pm
Post subject:

I believe stagshot edited the subgame.exe

Mr Ekted - Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:48 pm
Post subject:

D1st0rt wrote:

I believe stagshot edited the subgame.exe

Yes, he made a util which would enable/disable the following changes to subgame:

- Limit use of older PR's to sysop-only
- Remove filtering of messages starting with 8/* for mod/smod/sysop
- Remove filtering of consecutive identical public messages by the same player
- Add command *resetsoccer, which resets goals to zero without clearing player scores

Gravitron - Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:42 pm
Post subject:

There also been someone who had a subgame that's set to VIE only (blocks continuum).

Psyphi, all those 3rd party game protection apps can be bypassed/disabled.
If it's to be of any effectiveness, the programmer need to make the protection as part of the client, custom-made, which also drains resources from the client and might slow gameplay due to overanalyzing data (when someone repels in subspace, there's no time to start making a series of 100 checks whether it been a legitimate one or not, otherwise people start dying fast and in a record-oriented zone or the such as duels/league games this will cause much grief).
There are many mechanisms which can be implanted client side, varying encryptions, checks and scanners, etc.
But at the end of the day, it just makes the client more clumsy, more buggy, increased false-detections (I remember still all those poor people who got auto banned at INF for having no more than an overclocked BIOS) and so forth.

Detecting cheating via server and effectively banning them off it is a much more, faster, relatively fault-proof, course of action.

The problem with SubSpace is that it's a FREE game, "we" like providing its services in such a way, and personally I believe that the overall fun and "open arms" approach outweights the negative troubles we are forced to cope with as result.
It's real problem is more placed in its behaviour as a community, being solitary, unfrienndly, city-like instead of country-like neighbors-oriented, welcoming, assisting and caring for eachother.
It lacks a consolidating central core.

Bak - Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:45 pm
Post subject:

It's better because it's run by the players and not by a central core.

Things like repels aren't very complicated to implement. It draws a circle around the player (or square even) and sets the veloctiy of every player and item in the repel area to the value in the settings away from the repel location. SubSpace isn't a very processor heavy game; there's certainly processing power that could be dedicated to cheat detection.

Gravitron - Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:05 pm
Post subject:

Sigh, as predicted, even given the lengthy explenation the former backend reason been picked and locked onto while the design-of-online-gameplay reason been entirely ignored.

Anonymous - Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:23 pm
Post subject:

50% Packetloss wrote:

You have no idea how bans work. Only a *kill can be bypassed; if you get netbanned, you are never coming back unless you go buy a new comp and get another ISP.

Oh how I wish that were true. If you know what you're doing the only thing that can get netbanned is your name.

We've dealt with a few people like that in HZ. Hopefully Priit will heed the demands of most if not every zone owner and code a better player tracking method for bans.

Gravitron - Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:33 pm
Post subject:

By technical terminology, what he had said is true.
Net bans cannot be bypassed (read: unauthorizedly overrided/cheated), they can only be evaded.

Anonymous - Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:37 pm
Post subject:

He also said "you are never coming back unless you go buy a new comp and get another ISP," which isn't true. Anyway, don't want to argue or anything, was just giving my 2 cents.

BlueGoku - Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:42 pm
Post subject:

Sorry for double post, registered.

Gravitron - Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:17 am
Post subject:

He made a mistake of providing an example for achiving the effect instead of explaining the cause.
Generaly, inorder to evade a netban one need to change IP and MecID, one of the ways to do this would be to buy a new computer and get a different ISP, there be other ways as well.
In the core of intention, what he said had been true, he simply neglected to articulate it well enough.

Off topic, this forum be GQ, not GD, this thread doesn't belong here.

50% Packetloss - Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:28 am
Post subject:

banG collects a lot more data than just your macID and your IP, hardware info is also collected. Continuum probably sends even more hardware info than subspace's login sequence does. Thus, if they really want to ban you, then you arn't coming back.

Gravitron - Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:32 am
Post subject:

Now that would be incorrect.

"We" are all aware of what it collects and what can be collected.

The methods of banning and avoid them been discussed thoroughly for several times already, I would not divouldge into it.
This is not a "how to cheat" forum.

At the end of the day it is quite possible to evade a net ban, no matter how "really" they want to ban one, if one is to invest the necessary amount of resources.

And that really isn't also a problem.
For one, cheating is currently quite hard unless you're a proficient hacker or had some hacker do the ground work for you.
Secondly, almost all forms of cheating can be monitored for if you raise suspicion (and those obvious enough will trigger an almost instant ban).
Third, if cheating grew to become epidemic, switch permission mode to lock new comers to spec, have staff release and throw out players as needed.

Evading bans or not, it will take cought cheaters some time to get back, and even they do if they're stupid enough to cheat again they'll just get cought and thrown out again.
So it's really something only a bored person, who doesn't really want to play the game rather just cause grief, would do.

Oer The Dragon - Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:43 am
Post subject:

couldn't you just go to the library, lol

Anonymous - Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:53 pm
Post subject:

50% Packetloss wrote:

As I already said, we have some players in TW who are constantly evading Netbans, cheating and also passing cheats to others.

Cyan~Fire I don't know if you're joking or not, but cheating is getting pretty prevalent. The other day in TW we had a player named Alaskan passing out a URL which had instructions of how to do several memory cheats in Continuum using a program called the "Cheat Engine" (A memory hacker which is not just for Continuum). These cheats included infinite energy, pixel hack (make your ship whatever size you wish) and quite a few others.

Gravitron - Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:25 pm
Post subject:

TW wrote:

The other day in TW we had a player named Alaskan passing out a URL which had instructions of how to do several memory cheats in Continuum using a program called the "Cheat Engine" (A memory hacker which is not just for Continuum).

This is the point where I just must sit down, take my hat off and spam

Clueless people make me laugh.

I remember years ago I had this really old version of CE and I used it to create thie save game editor for warcraft 2 that would give you FFFF (65535) of all three resources types.
Was that saddest thing ever.

Anonymous - Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:27 pm
Post subject:

Your point being?

Anonymous - Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:24 pm
Post subject:

TW wrote:

[..]

As I already said, we have some players in TW who are constantly evading Netbans, cheating and also passing cheats to others.

Cyan~Fire I don't know if you're joking or not, but cheating is getting pretty prevalent. The other day in TW we had a player named Alaskan passing out a URL which had instructions of how to do several memory cheats in Continuum using a program called the "Cheat Engine" (A memory hacker which is not just for Continuum). These cheats included infinite energy, pixel hack (make your ship whatever size you wish) and quite a few others.

OutlawGene - Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:26 pm
Post subject:

Have people Download a Free CD-Key to use Continuum.

CD-Key Allowing Continuum Added Security. Yay.

And the CD-Key will be Free for Download.

Contempt+ - Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:29 pm
Post subject:

Nice bump.

OutlawGene - Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:30 pm
Post subject:

^.^

Purge - Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:40 am
Post subject:

OutlawGene wrote:

Have people Download a Free CD-Key to use Continuum.

CD-Key Allowing Continuum Added Security. Yay.

And the CD-Key will be Free for Download.

If the CD-Key will be free and so will the game, what use will it bring?

OutlawGene - Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:43 am
Post subject:

Spyed - Games which ban on Cd Key are much more effective then banning on IP. So if you get banned on Subspace it's much easier to bypass it if you have the knowledge then go out to the shop and buy another copy. I think Counter strike source is Cd key now.

Cd-Key Could Log Their Ip Information Machine Id. Etc. Everytime they Log in It could store That Kind of Info.

Purge - Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:47 am
Post subject:

The server/bot/biller is already capable of storing IP and MacID information...

OutlawGene - Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:01 am
Post subject:

it's why it's a Trash Forum.

D1st0rt - Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:12 pm
Post subject:

If the cd key is free for download, when someone is banned they will simply get a new cd key.

Quan Chi2 - Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:35 pm
Post subject:

Heres an idea. HOW ABOUT YOU PROGRAMMERS JUST GET GAME GUARD!?!?

it makes it impossible for newbies to cheat!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit**

50% Packetloss wrote:

You have no idea how bans work. Only a *kill can be bypassed; if you get netbanned, you are never coming back unless you go buy a new comp and get another ISP.

That is almost totally untrue. And if you believe that, then you have another thing comming when you ban some newb for cheating in your zone. You CAN come back, and its way too easy. You must be thinking of a subnet ban then. I heard those are a doozy to bypass. A new computer to bypass a ban? What are you talking about? You have more sense than this.