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Cyan~Fire
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:22 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Brain wrote:
Snap out of it, idiots, minimum wage increases only hurt.

Unless it's just to keep up with inflation.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:26 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

How does that make any sense at all? Inflation is a decline in the purchacing power of money. Increasing the minimum wage will only add to inflation.
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Cyan~Fire
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:04 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

How does that make any sense at all? I wasn't saying increase the minimum wage and thus create inflation, I was saying increase the minimum wage to keep up with inflation. If most jobs are paying more, then the minimum wage should be increased.
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Dr Brain
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:11 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

That's not keeping up with it. That's creating it.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:21 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Hes got you there.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:49 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Finally some one that's not too stubborn for their own self's, and understands something.
Ever hear of the term "if something is working fine, don't change it.", well we never needed to raise the wage in the first place, and due to the problems that it cause, people kept raising it higher and higher, which one day we will end up like that country in Africa (I forget what one it was), and it takes $2,000 (I forget what the true currency it was) to buy a loaf of bread.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:16 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

blah-er wrote:
I forget...
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Cyan~Fire
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:35 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Dr Brain wrote:
That's not keeping up with it. That's creating it.

I don't understand what you're saying at all. Are you trying to say that inflation is solely caused by raising the minimum wage? That's all that makes sense, and here's why:

The purpose of minimum wage is to make sure everyone working is getting a substantial amount of money, right? That granted, if inflation (the type not caused by raising minimum wage) decreases the "real" amount of money a worker getting minimum wage receives. Now using our good old friend limit here, this worker's "real" salary will drop to 0 over time.

So if you don't want minimum wage, say so, but don't be a two-faced republican and make some sinister plan to emasculate it. icon_rolleyes.gif
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:24 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I can see how raising minimum wage may cause some inflation... but most people that are against minimum wage increases have never worked minimum wage jobs. We need a minimum wage, and as the value of a dollar changes, minimum wage will need to change with it. Unless you'd like to turn into Mexico?
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Dr Brain
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:35 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Cyan~Fire wrote:
The purpose of minimum wage is to make sure everyone working is getting a substantial amount of money, right?


The purpose and the effect are two vastly different things.

Cyan~Fire wrote:
That granted, if inflation (the type not caused by raising minimum wage) decreases the "real" amount of money a worker getting minimum wage receives. Now using our good old friend limit here, this worker's "real" salary will drop to 0 over time.


Very, very few people live off of minimum wage (I'm not saying nobody), most people that make it are teenagers that have just entered the work force. By increasing it, you put the people that were ABOVE minumum wage AT minumum wage, see?

You're not really effecting the little guys (teenagers, in my example), because with a change in minumum wage, the cost of living goes up by about the same. Instead, you're putting the people who were doing just a little better all the way down at the bottom, so that they ARE living off minumum wage.

Cyan~Fire wrote:
So if you don't want minimum wage, say so, but don't be a two-faced republican and make some sinister plan to emasculate it. icon_rolleyes.gif


I *DON'T* want one. They are bad things all around. The only reason that we have them is that they sound good to people who can't think all the way through some issue, and the politician can say "I raised the minumum wage" and igrone the fact that people are worse off.

If you're worth $1 an hour, do you really thing companies are going to just give in and give you the $8 minimum wage? No, they're gonna fire you instead. It doesn't help the people at the bottom, it only hurts them. It tends to hurt the people in the middle too. I'll leave the rich out of it, but they're not unaffected (not that you care about them).
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Cyan~Fire
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:04 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Everything you said above is assuming inflation doesn't happen independently of a minimum wage increase. For example,
Brain wrote:
By increasing it, you put the people that were ABOVE minumum wage AT minumum wage, see?

Not if the ABOVE minimum wage people's salaries have already increased.

And just to let you know, I'm not a rabid supporter of minimum wage, but if we have one, I'd like for it to accopmlish something good.
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Dr Brain
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:22 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Minimum wages change all at once. Not gradually over time.

And why would their salaries go up?
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Cyan~Fire
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:10 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Brain wrote:
And why would their salaries go up?

As inflation occurs! Ahhhh!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:21 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Cyan~Fire wrote:
[..]


As inflation occurs! Ahhhh!


Because the wages go up, and they need more money to pay the people to make the products. Ahhhh!

It's just a big cycle, and we need to stop it soon.

BTW, I was just trying to make a point, your two's arguing is in a cycle (brain, cyan, brain, cyan) and it's just going to keep getting worse. So if I break that cycle, then maybe it'll relive the tension for a while.
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Dr Brain
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:41 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Cyan~Fire wrote:
[..]


As inflation occurs! Ahhhh!



Minimum wage is $5
A makes $5
B makes $7
Minimum wage is raised to $8
A makes $8
B makes $8

B is royally screwed, as B now makes 40% less than before the increase.

This all happens instantaneously, so no time for "inflation".
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:51 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:
Very, very few people live off of minimum wage


Ah, yes.
The narrow scope that is both American, blissful ignorance of youth and snobbish attitude of those that don't live in rat hotels.

I wouldn't presume to pretend that I'm dirt poor.
But I've worked in plenty of minimum wage jobs to encounter many people (adults, family-carrying ones) who live off of overtime in minimum wage jobs or carry two minimum wage jobs at once.
And I am aware of similar situation in America and other states.
To say that very few people live off of it is like saying very few people live off of Law-practice, or garbage disposal or government cleragy(sp?) or medical field or otherwise.
It be about as common place as any work force, and sometimes even at a slightly higher percentage than the rest.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:44 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

You seem to have missed the part in parens, Grav, where I said that some people do.
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Cyan~Fire
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:30 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Dr Brain wrote:
Minimum wage is $5
A makes $5
B makes $7
Minimum wage is raised to $8
A makes $8
B makes $8

B is royally screwed, as B now makes 40% less than before the increase.


How about...

Step 1:
Minimum wage is $5
A makes $5
B makes $7

Step 2:
Minimum wage and A remain the same.
B makes $14

Step 3:
People realize inflation has occured, and thus:
Minimum wage is $10
A makes $10
B makes $14

See what I'm saying now?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:51 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

wage increases do not necessery mean that inflation will increase.

Inflation can only increase if people spend an amount to increase demand greater than supply can keep up. If there is excess supply in the market wage increases will not increase inflation. inflation around the 1-3% level is seen as normal and healthy for the economy.

Wages increasing is not necessery a bad thing.

Wages being increased to keep up with inflation does no lead to more inflation. It keeps inflation the same, as the amount the person earning the money has the same spending power. If wages are not increased to keep up with inflation people lose spending power as everything starts to cost more. So they spend less. As people spend less companies go bust. People lose jobs. If this continuues for too long you end up with a recession.....
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:38 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

You gotta love the oversimplistic views of how the economy works that are given in this thread. Here's the next question to divide you people: Does the progressive income tax have a long term effect on disposable income levels?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:49 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Dr Brain wrote:
You seem to have missed the part in parens, Grav, where I said that some people do.


You mean this one?
Quote:
Very, very few people live off of minimum wage (I'm not saying nobody),

I would say I've missed nothing from your (rather dismissive, disregarding & degrative in its approach) state of mind towards the issue.
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Cyan~Fire
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:34 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

SamHughes wrote:
You gotta love the oversimplistic views of how the economy works that are given in this thread.

Don't be retarded. That's like saying v=at is "oversimplistic" because it doesn't take Lorentz factors into account. When discussing general principles, you don't need to include every minute detail.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:12 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I fail to see how your scenerio works. It looks to me like B gets a promotion, then the government mandates that A should get one too, disregarding the fact that the company would raise A's wages if he/she were worth it.

That's increasing inflation, not keeping up with it.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:14 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Dr Brain wrote:
the fact that the company would raise A's wages if he/she were worth it.
I don't believe that to be as common a practice as you imply.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:47 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

No, more often, A leaves and finds someone that will pay more. Cyan, however, had B's pay rate raised in his example, so I was merely following along.
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