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Trash Talk - Linux systems...

Assassin2684 - Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:06 am
Post subject: Linux systems...

Ok well i have been working with linux (I have 2 computers so one has linux and one has windows) for a while, not mainly with continuum. So i was wondering i just got Ark Linux and i dont kno if i should install it or not. Does anyone have it or no if it is a good thing to download? Thanks.

Solo Ace - Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:17 am
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Are you saying you have worked with Linux for a while and now you want to install it?

What do you actually want to know? If it's "good"?
Decide for yourself if it's good, I use Gentoo and it's the only distro I like so far.

Assassin2684 - Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:01 pm
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Well what i mean is i have used linux befor but i just got some new type of linux called (Ark Linux) and i was wondering if anyone has it or has tryed it and thoguht it was good.

SuSE - Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:37 pm
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If you want an easy-to-use Linux distro for desktop use, then you may as well use Mandrake. It's based off the same distro Ark Linux is based off (RedHat) and is I hear VERY easy to setup and use. SuSE would be another easy one.

I'm with Solo, though. If you're not just going to be a Linux tourist, go for a source-based distro like Gentoo or at least a rad one like Debian.

Solo Ace - Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:43 pm
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Isn't Mandrake dead?

SuSE - Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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nah, Mandrake's doing well as a newb distro afaik

No harm in using SuSE, though, if you're afraid of losing support.

Solo Ace - Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:17 pm
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I tried SuSE, yeah I tried a few, this is a snippet from a conversation on T3G staffchat about my famous Distro switching:

T3G Staffchat wrote:

1:(Sysop 1)> look at me i'm solo ace i had to install 10 distros to get one to work
1:Solo Ace> they worked, but I didn't like them

1:(Some SMod)> lol
1:(Sysop 1)> k
1:(Sysop 2)> poor solo he couldn't understand them so he loaded yet another distro

1:(Sysop 2)> i still say slack>redhat
1:Solo Ace> wtf ***, I told you I didn't like redhat/mandrake

YOU said SuSE 9 SUCKS
1:(Sysop 1)> Debian2win
1:(The SMod again)> mandrake

I stick with Gentoo.

Assassin2684 - Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:42 pm
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i have used red hat its just a bit complicated for me lol. But i will try soem of those others. I have the ark linux cd but i migth go with the other ones if they are better

SuSE - Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:41 pm
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...nobody said use RedHat

I said use Mandrake or SuSE

Assassin2684 - Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:47 pm
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I kno lol i was just saying that i have used it befor.

Mine GO BOOM - Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:25 am
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I personally have experience, little though it maybe, in Gentoo, Arch Linux, and Slackware. I use Gentoo the most, because the shitty VIA C3 processor isn't i686, so I can't use Arch Linux on it. But after a while, the compile from sources abilities with USE flags and such grew on me, and I'm not sure I can easily leave it for a personal system. That, and I love tinkering in sources, and the fact that my system has the source in one nice folder for everything is kickass.

As I don't run any of the above as a main desktop system (hopefully will change within two weeks), I can't recommend any over the other. But I do have to say, that Gnome really looks nice. But then again, I'm a blackbox kind of guy.

Solo Ace - Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:56 am
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I think I'll try to use Gnome next week, KDE became pretty boring for me.

Didn't SuSE become commercial only, like RedHat (I mean the real RedHat, not "based off" stuff like Fedora / Mandrake)?

SuSE - Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:15 am
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Solo Ace wrote:

I think I'll try to use Gnome next week, KDE became pretty boring for me.

Didn't SuSE become commercial only, like RedHat (I mean the real RedHat, not "based off" stuff like Fedora / Mandrake)?

...no?

Anonymous - Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:16 pm
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my question would be....aside from being "fun" to mess with. what presicely (besides servers) are any of them good for?

glorified shells with little support for major amounts of very common software. in which you must waste cpu cycles emulating standard functionality in windows based systems.

SuSE - Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:48 pm
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Anonymous wrote:

Wow, it's clear you know jack shit about Linux.

I mean it's clear you haven't even spent FIVE MINUTES reading about Linux

You are the very definition of newb.

...and about software, let me educate you: free and open source is nearly caught up with commercial - it will EAT THE WORLD

name me any commercial windows software and I'll name you something free and open source that is better or has more potential

Cyan~Fire - Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:23 pm
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A newb wrote:

in which you must waste cpu cycles emulating standard functionality in windows based systems.

What the hay are you talking about? I really wish I could use Linux, since it has so much more functionality built in and even more support for open-source.

Mine GO BOOM - Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:35 pm
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Only reason I havn't converted my main computer over is because I enjoy playing a couple of games every so often, and sadly, my Geforce 2 + Winex plays like shit. Maybe in a couple of months, if the 9600pro drops in price, I'll be getting me a new video card.

Anonymous - Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:46 pm
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in 18 months, number of bug fixes for 2 os released right arount he same time.

win xp 27

Red hat 7.2 158

20 times as much application software for windows. barely any games(the most complicated peices of software) will even run on linux, and the ones they claim do, often dont due to a miriad of issues.

installing said applications on windows is very consistant.

installing said apllication on linux varies greatly.

windows can act as both server and client. both to a acceptable degree.

linux falls flat on its face acting as a client.

so i think i just names about 10,000 peices of software that will run on windows and not on linux. nuff said. windows will run them all and do anything linux can do.

Anonymous - Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:02 pm
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SuSE wrote:

name me any commercial windows software and I'll name you something free and open source that is better or has more potential

Some stuff I can't find are games like CNC Generals and an HTTP mail client (which outlook express can do).

SuSE - Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:32 pm
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Anonymous wrote:

windows can act as both server and client. both to a acceptable degree.

linux falls flat on its face acting as a client.

you are a cow - linux is a better server because it's better; as a desktop as well

Mine GO BOOM - Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:52 pm
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Quote:

in 18 months, number of bug fixes for 2 os released right arount he same time.

win xp 27

Red hat 7.2 158

Also compare how many vunerbilies are currently unpatched in each different OS. And picking Redhat isn't 'linux', as its a certain group of people's choice for how users interact with linux. Each distro has their own choices of how things work and built-in supported software. Redhat, as being a very commerical one, patches almost all the software they interact with, thus inflating their patch count. If you want to compare 'bugs' between the two, please compare the kernels, as in Linux, everything else isn't truly the OS, but rather 3rd party software.

Also, compare the severity of each bug. In Windows, at least 3 I can count real quick were huge worm-infested bugs in which the boxes were completely rooted, and en-mass.

Quote:

20 times as much application software for windows. barely any games(the most complicated peices of software) will even run on linux, and the ones they claim do, often dont due to a miriad of issues.

Games are usually not as complicated as other peices of software. Office easily is much more difficult and more complicated than Doom 3. Please try to be a bit more specific as to what you count as application software, because if you are counting every crappy VB application, then yes, Windows easily blows linux out of the water in number of applications. Number of good ones, thats iffy.

A quick count of how many easily supported software applications that the Gentoo community deems worthy enough to include into portage: 7,503.

Quote:

installing said applications on windows is very consistant.

There are many, many different installation methods for Windows. Some you just unzip, some require you to go through many NEXT, NEXT screens, some let you choose where they can go, some force extra crap onto your computer, others require extra dlls JUST for the installation procedure that don't even come with it. With most distros for Linux, installation is as simple as emerge/apt-get/pacman NAME.

Quote:

installing said apllication on linux varies greatly.

If you are thinking of the configure/make/make install, thats a very universal method of installing almost every application on Linux. Or you could go with the supported installation method for your distro, which is usually as easy as typing the command with the name at the end, or selecting from a list of programs in the GUI versions/

Quote:

windows can act as both server and client. both to a acceptable degree.

Depends on the server. Like hell anyone will run Windows as a file server, a database server, or a firewall. Email server is about all they have going for it. And don't BS with webserver, because Apache running under Linux has Apache for Windows or IIS blown out of the water.

Quote:

linux falls flat on its face acting as a client.

Actually, as a client, it works great. Have you ever tried it yet? I love the abilities it has, such as the workspaces, being able to run remote X applications that are displayed on your screen, built-in shading for all programs. The list just goes on. If you try to suggest that as a simple word processor/internet browser/email client, then you are horribly wrong. Give two new people computers, one with Windows with Office/IE/OE, and another with Linux with KDE/Konqueror/OpenOffice/KMail, and I've found that the Linux users have a LOT less problems. They cannot accidently break things, and in the off chance that they do, I can almost always fix it remotely as easily as I could if I was standing there.

Quote:

so i think i just names about 10,000 peices of software that will run on windows and not on linux. nuff said. windows will run them all and do anything linux can do.

Havn't stated one specific one yet. Here, I'll help you along on your path: The table of equivalents / replacements / analogs of Windows software in Linux. (Official site of the table)

Slowking Man - Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:47 pm
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How about just using the operating system that you like the best? I mean, you're not going to convince anyone that "M$ sucks" or "Linux blows", and other people using a different OS is not going to change anything, unless you believe in some crazy Microsoft conspiracy and that by buying Microsoft products people are funding said conspiracy.

Cyan~Fire - Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:03 pm
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It is possible to convince someone to like Linux. The hard part is convincing them to try it.

Miesco - Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:08 am
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Do not get mandrake, I have tried it and you do not want it. If this was a help for linux forum, all the responses would be: delete mandrake and install an other distro.

myke - Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:19 am
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mandrake actually isn't all that bad if you've never used linux before...an easy install, a lot of preinstalled/configured hardware drivers, etc.. it worked fine when i ran it the first time i used linux never had any problems with it

Anonymous - Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:28 am
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if linux had allmost 90% of the client market like windows does. i can arguably say that you will see even more fatal flaws then anything weve seen in windows so far. just wait till its under the gun.

the statement that a word processor of any kind is more complex then a game that uses very complicated 3 dimensional algorithms is quite amuusing.

app compatibilty: for starters, any app that required the full functionality of directX. not some lame wrapper. just forget about it. or at least forget about it being easy.

i dont view over complication as a plus, maybe you people like the feeling that you have something that only dedicated ppl that want to re-invent the wheel will figure out. but thats just not reality. its like taking a big step back.

well maybe you "dont care about directX, MS bullshit" and you will just use openGL....well have fun playing quake3. and just forget about all the advance functions and particle effects that directX9 allows. get used to seeing subpar sprite effects.

thats enough for now, more dirt later

Anonymous - Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:54 am
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sorry too DP, i keep forget my login, had ta Re-format....LOL

shutup.

so anyway..... i just wanted to add. i didnt say it was crap. i just asked why? and im still waiting to be convinced. ill rephrase my question.

Why, would anyone, that just wants to play all the latest games(without BS), brosse the web, make graphics, want anything other then a PC or Mac?

dont go all ape-ship nuts on me. heh

so far, the only thing ive seen that made my jaw drop is samba 3's server speeds.

Dr Brain - Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:37 am
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If you want to play the latest games, Linux ins't for you. Yet, that is.

If you don't really want to play games, or at least not new ones, then linux can be a really nice OS.

If SubSpace ran under linux, I would use it as my primary OS.

Cyan~Fire - Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:22 am
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The word "algorithms" makes your claim really convincing.

The high-powered stuff Linux runs is quite a bit more high-powered than the "3d" video games you play. Sure, they don't require a $500 video card, but I count that as a bonus.

ZiGNoTZaG - Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:28 am
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one of the number one credit card transaction companies in the world uses linux servers, but guess what just about every client is?

and guess what language almost all off the misc apps that they use internally are written in?

heh. food for thought.

algorithm: a procedure for solving a mathematical problem (as of finding the greatest common divisor) in a finite number of steps that frequently involves repetition of an operation.

in this case not only X, and Y, but Z as well. and not only for player postions and level object positions, but for sound positions and controler postions, interfacing an even larger subset of graphical and audio instructions based on the current hardware and drivers. such as directX and things like EAX enviotnmental audio. and not only is it doing all these things, its doing them in a constant loop. yes, games are at the pinnacle of pushing a pc to its limits.

as far as a reg user, nothing else they will do will use as much of thier PC as a game will.
does that help?

emileej - Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:13 am
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Quote:

windows can act as both server and client. both to a acceptable degree.

*rofl!*

The statements concerning a lack of software for other platforms than windows are timply untrue. Five years ago I would perhaps agreed - you need to get up to date.

Personally I own, use and enjoy a macintosh - running os x. I like that it combines the stability and power of unix with the concistent and usefull interface of mac os.

Right now I can hear inhaling to shout "NO FREGGIN GAMES FOR MAC!" but thats simply not true. Ofcourse most new games are first released for windows and mac versions are not prioritised as high by any game company with just a little sense. None the less more and more games are released for mac and more than you think are released for mac first.

I would never reccomend a mac for anyone just because its a mac. Buying mac requires a great deal of consideration since you beyond any doubt do limit yourself to some extend. However - at any given time I would prefer a market dominated by mac and its newfound friend unix rather than by windows.

Anonymous - Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:48 pm
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emileej, since you have a mac can you enlighten us as to what the game 'continuum' for mac actually is?

i88gerbils - Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:15 pm
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Woot! Continuum for Mac. I loved that game!

uh, and now onto my thoughts about linux...

Linux as a server works reliably and dependably.
Linux as a workstation cluster works reliably and dependably.
Linux as a desktop still has some problems.

I use Slackware, not because it is the greatest distrobution, because to me it is the easiest to customize to my specific system. Although my curiousity with Gentoo has increased, but I am not rushing into it just yet. I don't like binary distributions of software mainly because they seem to fuck up more then my built versions.

Just this past week I spent hours trying to build FireFox .93 and Gtk-2.0 because the FireFox .9x binaries and installer failed to work without any reasonable explanation on bugzilla or mozillazine. But for most other distros it should work fine.

The Open Office suite is okay, and actually I have grown to like some of its features. FireFox, Java, gAIM or Kopete, X-Chat 2.0, GIMP, gFTP, X-CdRoast, mplayer and xine, all come together to make a fairly good linux desktop. GNUcash being the only program that does not measure up to its equivalent: Quickbooks, Quicken, or TurboTax. (this is a standard linux argument). The downsides are that some of these programs have odd quircks that take getting used to. And because they compete with corporate software they may be a bit slow to release new features.

Games? Are there really any good games being released? I think the last game I bought was NeverWinter Nights in 2002. And that's spotty as a good game at best. The only good game that I would like to run on linux would be SubSpace. That and YPP! makes me happy. Two other games I wish I could run? Civ3 (I have freeciv though) and BVE. I can emulate with ePSXe and ZSNES (or snes9x). After completely switching my desktop environment to linux since last September I feel fairly satisfied. There are still problems with ATI drivers and TV Tuner support, but I'm patient.

If you sat down with Grandma, Mom, or Co-Worker and set them up with a Gentoo or RedHat distribution, configured everything well, they could be happy for years. They can say good-bye to Windows security problems, e-mail and browser problems, and other stupid shit.

myke - Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:17 pm
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i88gerbils wrote:

If you sat down with Grandma, Mom, or Co-Worker and set them up with a Gentoo or RedHat distribution, configured everything well, they could be happy for years. They can say good-bye to Windows security problems, e-mail and browser problems, and other stupid shit.

that is 100% true...i had slackware installed on a dual boot with windows and i would always leave the computer on all night on linux and my mom would use it and not reboot to windows because i told her how to get online and such

Dr Brain - Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:17 pm
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You usually have to teach Grandma how to use windows anyway, so why not just teach Linux in the first place when you get the chance? If they've already learned windows, I find that Linspire (formerly Lindows) is a good distro to give them.

Cyan~Fire - Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:52 pm
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Zig wrote:

and guess what language almost all off the misc apps that they use internally are written in?

Java, C, or PERL. Not VB or any other MS-specific language...

I don't really understand why you explained an algorithm to me. I know what it is. It's one of those big words that really makes someone sound intelligent. Like clientele. Or prioritize.

And I'll admit that Linux is not a gaming platform. But if gaming is all you use a computer for, trade it in for a console.

Anonymous - Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:36 pm
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Well my strategic :wiggleeyebrows: response is:

i88gerbils wrote:

odd quircks that take getting used to

In my case with gFTP you have to keep trying again and again to make sure the filesize after upload is the same as original filesize.

SuSE - Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:18 pm
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emileej wrote:

Buying mac requires a great deal of consideration since you beyond any doubt do limit yourself to some extend.

You do not limit yourself. Mac has good hardware and you can just kill Mac OS X and install Linux (or a BSD, or OpenDarwin, or Unix, etc).

Anonymous wrote:

sorry too DP, i keep forget my login, had ta Re-format....LOL

shutup.

fucking priceless

emileej - Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:32 pm
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SuSE wrote:

emileej wrote:

Buying mac requires a great deal of consideration since you beyond any doubt do limit yourself to some extend.

You do not limit yourself. Mac has good hardware and you can just kill Mac OS X and install Linux (or a BSD, or OpenDarwin, or Unix, etc).

Anonymous wrote:

sorry too DP, i keep forget my login, had ta Re-format....LOL

shutup.

fucking priceless

Nah you misunderstand, akai - when I said limit I meant you might end up in a situation where you need to use some special program which is windows-only or perhaps open a document which can only be read by some special windows program.

Yea the macintosh has great hardware - why do you think the pentagon is building a supercomputer off apple G5's?

But why would one want to install linux or any other unix when os x is shipped with all macs?

Cyan~Fire - Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:57 pm
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emileej wrote:

But why would one want to install linux or any other unix when os x is shipped with all macs?

Because MacOS works with you, not for you.

Anonymous - Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:06 pm
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Not even gonna log in to respond to that. Gah no wait its so lame I wont fight you on that comment... Ah well - I'm off to bed

ZiGNoTZaG - Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:04 am
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Cyan~Fire wrote:

[..]

Java, C, or PERL. Not VB or any other MS-specific language...

I don't really understand why you explained an algorithm to me. I know what it is. It's one of those big words that really makes someone sound intelligent. Like clientele. Or prioritize.

And I'll admit that Linux is not a gaming platform. But if gaming is all you use a computer for, trade it in for a console.

VB is used quite exstensivly, i know, because i work there. granted not on the for the main DB's, but all around it everywhere.

what word should i have used?....in all your infinite wisdom. if the word fits. sorry to stretch your vocab.

erm um....games are more complex, because of all those crazy math things going on. ...... there how bout that?

jeebus, please dont focus on my choice of words. it cheapens the thread.
its like that guy who has no other argument then the fact that you spelled a word a wrong. just the facts man.

consoles suck ass. period. and who said anything about just games.

sorry i cooked up your thread Assassin, i sorta knew it would get flame-ish. hehe

Anonymous - Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:55 am
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photoshop

Cyan~Fire - Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:25 am
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GIMP?

Mine GO BOOM - Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:35 pm
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ZiGNoTZaG wrote:

erm um....games are more complex, because of all those crazy math things going on. ...... there how bout that?

Complexity isn't just what program has the most math in it. Complexity is how much depth is required to make a program work well at what it does. Games require a lot of power, because of the massive amount of computations they use, but if you were to start from scratch right now and make both Doom 3 and Office XP, you'd find that recreating Office XP is much more work and a lot more complex.

As for you not liking Linux, have you ever tried it? If you are afraid of messing up your computer, I suggest giving Virtual PC a try. Since you seem to be a type of person where reading and following a manual would seem to be too much work, I'd suggest trying out SuSE, Fedora, or better yet, Knoppix which you can run as also run as a live CD on your real system (won't mess up Windows at all).

ZiGNoTZaG - Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:25 pm
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"Complexity isn't just what program has the most math in it. Complexity is how much depth is required to make a program work well at what it does. Games require a lot of power, because of the massive amount of computations they use, but if you were to start from scratch right now and make both Doom 3 and Office XP, you'd find that recreating Office XP is much more work and a lot more complex."

-now your comparing one program to a whole group of programs. which doesnt change the fact that that games simply require more of a pc. and lots of games even the most professional and stable cause lockups and strange behavior occasionaly. now is this because they are simple?

As for you not liking Linux, have you ever tried it? If you are afraid of messing up your computer, I suggest giving Virtual PC a try. Since you seem to be a type of person where reading and following a manual would seem to be too much work, I'd suggest trying out SuSE, Fedora, or better yet, Knoppix which you can run as also run as a live CD on your real system (won't mess up Windows at all).

-whateva

ill try it, when i find it to suit my needs.

(which i know it doesnt, from reading all about it)

Anonymous - Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:22 pm
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Cyan~Fire wrote:

GIMP?

heh you cant compare photoshop and gimp :P

i88gerbils - Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:15 pm
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Yes, I have had to deal with VB software in the corporate environment. Fucking companies overcharging for their shitty programs. But hey, I wasn't paid for my opinion, just IT work.

Dr Brain - Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:29 pm
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Guest wrote:

[..]
heh you cant compare photoshop and gimp

Why not? They are both very good programs.

Anonymous - Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:34 pm
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Dr Brain wrote:

[..]

Why not? They are both very good programs.

yes they are both good programs, but photoshop is superior to its competitors even in the windows & mac world.

and im talking about professional use, gimp will do fine in light 2d graphics just like painshop pro for example, but any (well, most :P) professional will choose photoshop over them anyday

Cyan~Fire - Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:47 pm
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i88gerbils wrote:

Fucking companies overcharging for their shitty programs.

Exactly why GIMP > Photoshop. Photoshop isn't crap, but it is overpriced. Sure, Photoshop makes it easy to do complex stuff, but GIMP is free. And don't give me any "but I can download it free" bs.

SuSE - Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:35 pm
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that's irrelevant - most professionals take what they're spoonfed

I saw a fucking Adobe CS manual at my college bookstore today...hilarious

Anonymous - Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:20 pm
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im kewl with jasc. the only thing its missing is all those umpteen thousand filters and plugins eheh.

its good for simple things.

but i have to admit. in the professional market. it would appear that macs and photoshop are the weapons of choice.

Bak - Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:23 pm
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just because a program demands a lot from your pc doesn't mean it's more complex, nor do "lockups" or "strange behavior":

Code: Show/Hide

int main()
{
while (true)
;

return 0;
}