Server Help :: View topic - Comments on "Yo, can u plz help me write English?"

Server Help

Trash Talk - Comments on "Yo, can u plz help me write English?"

Gravitron - Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:11 pm
Post subject: Comments on "Yo, can u plz help me write English?"

(Edit: Split from "Yo, can u plz help me write English?" -MGB)

By the by, you have said "thing" instead of "think", heh heh.

Well I have several things to say in regarding to this article (hope it does not bother you MGB *wink* and I will be glad of you could convey my feelings back to them):

1. On the silly-notion side, most americans do not know how to speak English to begin with, they never did (except maybe the first few generations of british settlers) and never were taught to, they always spoke American/Americanese/Americanize/WTFever!, and not English.

2. "leet" speak, Internet speak and in particular "yo" and "hey dude" were not an invention of the Internet nor the youth, it was the invention of the grown up hippies and other free minded and less "sticks in the mud and in the shaft" kind of fellows which invented by the way the internet.
They were mainly in the state of mind of free-world-sharing-love and such, which is why they were more friendly to each other and less harsh/serious/republican-stuck-up sort of types, and as such, their language reflected it.
So if you want to blame anyone, blame the "grown-up"s. *sticking tongue out*

3. Hebrew does have vowels, just not in the same sense as most european languages does - as in letters.
Hebrew do employs, like many languages from around the world do (french, german, japanese/chineese, arabic), symbolsand signs for vowels, only that unlike most of languages they use ONLY such signs for vowels.
In hebrew those signs (in exception of a few special ones) are presented below the letters.
They're being taught since the first grade, and later on are dropped out in "advanced reading".
As a child read more and more books and articles and such, he learns the words, and quite simply get used to them, so later on there's ussually very small difficulty by context and memory to identify the words, how they're vocalized and understanding what they mean.
Also, some books and newspapers and most official notices (such as political compaign, traffic signs and such, even the bible) are being grammaticulated with these vowels, so those of difficulty can still understand them most easily.

4. Yes, subspace has greatly contributed to the decrease in my ability to write with grammatically correct English, but, it was not because the way people talk, as much as my own lack of will to stand for my convictions.
When I came to subspace I knew English in a high level, and as I kept correcting people I was frawned upon, eventually I caved and "dumbed down" to their level.
Still, blaming the internet on this is just as bad as blaming action games for lunatic, murderous acts of teenagers.
Humans committed crimes long before anyone had heard of LASER, photon tubes and video games.
And when I communicate with someone who is not an aquitance, I still maintain a level of proffesionalizem in my corrospondings.
So in the end, it is upto the human being in question to make the distinction.
Just like they are to make it when it comes to TV/Games and Real Life, differentiating between good and bad.
Instead of blaming the Internet, the parents should see where THEY have done wrong in making sure their children can make that distinction and understand where they can express freely and where they are to maintain a level of proffesionalisem and distance in their way of speech.
Infact, the Internet offers tools such as being aquinted to a person with a 2nd degree in English who will correct you on your mistakes. (*cough*)
And various spell checkers and such tool which will help those WILLING to use them to phrase elequently and impeccably.
Again, it is all upto the user to make the right decision, the Internet only supply help to those who wish to use it, it does not force it nor the degration of one's speech, such is a conscious choice of the user.

5. <!11 |)00|) & /,>314>< & /o4/,>'/

^_^ |)!9 !7

Mine GO BOOM - Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:20 pm
Post subject:

My responce to the article is pretty much as follows:

So do Mexicans speak Mexican? Its still English, just as the Scotts speak English.
Yes, the internet caused this. As to who on the internet started it, no one can be blamed (well, except Al Gore). But those kids that are learning to use computers and type instant messages before they learn correct grammer are getting screwed pretty badly. My sister is like this. She has to shorten almost every word possible when typing, and almostdoes it when she speaks. She does it with her notes she sends to classmates, but to my knowledge, not to the extent of writing an essay like that.
I know little/nothing about Hebrew, so no comment there

As for the thing/think, that isn't due to me attempting to shorthand a message. I type fast with very little error checking, and I havn't found a PHPBB grammer MOD yet. (Btw [ironic, yes], SpellCheck is currently disabled as I attempt to fix it a bit, caused a bit of problems with Mozilla/etc.)

Gravitron - Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:41 pm
Post subject:

Yeah, I'm well aware of the effects of fast typing.
I tend to dislexic fast typing, infact on the first revision of my response I've spelled your name MBG.

Mexicans, latino, wtfever, they speak a variation of spanish.
Just like the Americans speak a variation of english.
Hebrew is also a variation of several languages (yiddish, aramic, etc.) + own material.

The Internet and computers have taught me much english.
From understanding commands and the system responses to my actions, programming languages and articles available.
It is a useful educating tool, to those willing to learn.
Shorten speak and writing is also being "taught" in the navy, military and aviation, and they existed long before computers, would you blame them as well?
No one is coming to Star-Trek's Scotty (RIP) for coining "
I'm givin' 'er all she's got, cap'n! I canna give 'er no more!" and the real sea-men who speak like this.
No one is coming in complaints to old BlueBeard and the pirates for speaking like they did.
Slang and shotened ways of speak and writing existed long before Internet.
But as ussual, people tend to blame progress for their own problems which are invoked from them being simply Human Beings, and some, ones, with a very poor sense of judgement.
It is always the same thing repeated : I am not to blame, it is society.
But if you dig deep enough, what is society? Individuals.
And each individual carry a certain part of the blame, when they all disfunction, you get an entire disfunctional society.
Every individual's actions has reprecausions on many others including self, when all those are blended together you get the general fault of society which drove a said person onto wrong actions.
But it is not the entire society to blame, it is each individual who won't take blame for their wrong actions which led to other wrong actions.
And it is the said person who won't take responsibilities on their actions who is also to blame.

Helicon - Tue Apr 01, 2003 4:53 pm
Post subject:

it is each generations right and responsibility to bitch about the next (to fulfill the needs of alternaton of generations)

Dr Brain - Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:23 pm
Post subject:

I thought the part about comparing it to other languages was total BS. It's something that came about with lazyness and cannot be rationalized in the way that they were trying to.

Personally, I do feel the effects of this while writing, but not as much as others, because I usually try to keep my in-game typing pretty correct (usually only lacking capitals and periods).

Helicon - Tue Apr 01, 2003 11:53 pm
Post subject:

i am an accomplished, payed, well-educated writer who can throw 1337 caps with the best of em. Teach the kids more writing... creative writing, and maybe they will learn the value of words

Gravitron - Wed Apr 02, 2003 2:29 am
Post subject:

Well, if you wish to begin correcting children's language, I suggest that you start with this sap.
Even I can yield a far higher state of grammatically-sound composition.
Gaze upon his horrific English and shudder.

Quote:

[/b]Originally posted by SVS:
So much I would like to publicly say about this, so much that could be said. I could use this as an excuse to flame Polix in response to how his young, foolish ass handled me a few months ago but you know what I wont. Why? It is known of your business. Just like the situation back then was none of your business. You are being informed because we want you to know what is going to happen to the system. Just like back then you are not being told everything and just like then your opinion means nothing.

I am not saying wither this is right or wrong, I am just saying you have no say in this and you did not have to be told. Be gracious that you were informed as it could of been kept completely privite as the sale was initially.
[/b]

roof_tiles - Wed Apr 02, 2003 4:49 am
Post subject:

haha..k i might be blacklisted but, gravitron kinda has a few points...

like..if u type l337 and you WANT to type l337..so what..your fault. and if the toher people who wanna talk normal, but get sucked in..its thier own fault for getting sucked in...

and as for little 7 yr old kiddies typing l337...they probly dont know any better....they find it amusing..like..mcdonals happy meal toys or somethin

anyway...

yer

and btw, that pirate bluebeard thingy..ha..completely agree

and uh..in your first message...

wtf did u say on point 5?

i know it ha the word "dood" in it...but thats all i could decipher...thats a bit toooo l337 for me..not that i like the l337 shit anyway..just plain annoying

there ya go
anyways...dont matter if u speek l337 on the net...

its not the nets fault
its those crummt sms messaging sites that only allow 20 letters in your message

so instead of typing:
"hello there bob wussup mah nigga yeah get rappin widdit geez"

you would type:
"yo b sup nig ya rap"

and so spawns the supposed shittyness of internet language..but wait....people do this on mobiles too ya know...

heheh...i remember gravitron once said:
"lest i banz0r j00 a$$"

anyway...if yee is right about this, how come we arent complaining about the emoticons too?..i mean...

the smile emoticon:
: )

call that a smile, looks like some 90degree rotated nipples and a curved thingy...a chin mabey

so instead of : ) (which is a l337 shorthand for:

)

we should be doing this:
___
/O O\
| U |
\_O_/

as it looks more like a face....
but noooo
people look beyong the : )
and look strait into the image which replaces the l337 text which then tells the server to place a smilie image..thus hiding the fact that its not an image...its l337 coding

wooah..slow down, am i still on the same subject?
yall have a right to an opinion...some like l337..some dont...
i dont like l337...but i aint got a problem with other people typing it, if they wanna type it then fine...type it..dont bother me

let us respect our opinions and not create a
"clu clutz clan" against grammar.

<---l337 coding
woot <---aint got a fuggin clu
woozmeh <----i invented this, dont even know what it means....but hey i use the word so there

and its tru also..taking a similar thingy

just coz we play mortal combat with heads on stick and stabbin grabbin blood fest...
if u wanna go and spike some heads after playing the game and ignoring the "dont try this in real life" message....its completely yours fault, your action..and those who wish to follow you, they are your sheep..and u can have fun commanding them...
but its nobody elses fault...cant blame the game if your the one who gave in to it...

just like, cant blame the internet if your daughter got sucked into its l337 realm

1. shes only 5 years old and dont know ne better

2. if shes a grown child, its her own fault for giving in to it

3. nuff sed im g0 b3z05 j0* bu6 74 40 44n 14417 30z....734h..no wait..i cant banz0r j00..i have no p0waH..with a capital AY-CHE..ACHE...how do you spell "H" without using one letter anyway?...always puzzled me.

Gravitron - Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:21 am
Post subject:

5. chill dude and relax and party dig it

Helicon - Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:20 am
Post subject:

lets all have a big fight

Helicon - Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:22 am
Post subject:

1337 h@x0r? she doesnt know what it means.... script kitten, who knew?

Mine GO BOOM - Wed Apr 02, 2003 3:12 pm
Post subject:

roof_tiles wrote:

Blah

This thread is a perfect example. When reading over messages, you sometimes skim through things. I know i'm a horrible speller and worse with grammer, hell i edited most of my scripts (yet to do it with this board though) to auto-case I because its too much work to press shift randomly in the middle of a sentence for something as common as i. But whenever i see people type horribly, i sometimes lose interest in what they are saying. Roof_tiles is a perfect example. There is no structure in what he typed what so ever, with way too many spaces between words and random numbers thrown into words. Now if he maybe edited it to look like a paragraph in some shape or form, i might go back and read it, but i pretty much skipped after the first two lines.

As to blaming the internet? Sure. Written languages take time. You can say something quicker than you can type/write it. So even with those pirates who spoke horrible English, if they were literate, i'm pretty sure they would not write like that. Unlike speaking, you can go back and fix a mistake. Thats why you have white-out/backspace. You can retract what you say/write before anyone else knows of it. I edit my messages plenty of times before i hit submit (or leave the text box). Every so often, i delete sentences and re-write them because they were not clear the first time through.

Can you do that in spoken English? No. So comparing "Internet English" to spoken words or other languages is not fair. Comparing it to a pirate who may speak like that to most people, but then he attempts to speak somewhat correct around his kind/queen is valid, because i'm sure he wouldn't tell his king (assuming he respected one) "yar!" after every responce like i've seen over the internet. All too often i see :) or LOL randomly placed through questions or responces.

Random person may have wrote:

thne me server LOL broke. :) :) :) LOL :) u lik dogz? :( tehn it n0 w0rkz no more

I can excuse sometimes when people do something like that. If your playing an online game (or in a real war trying to communicate), and you need help, you won't write out "Excuse me fellow comrades, I am in a bit of a pickle. If you could, would you mind assisting me?" No, they yell like hell asking for help as quickly and repeatly as often. Sometimes shorthand is perfect.

Trying a responce in this pretty white box does not have a responce timer set on it. If you don't hit submit within a minute after starting to type won't stop your message from showing. E-mail is the same way. You have time, go read over your message, or attempt to correct a mistake three words back that even YOU noticed.

Back to the main point. Typing "how r u doods?" in a instant messaging chat is fine. People you are taking to might understand you. Just as a pirate understands another pirate's slang, and as a New York cabbie understands other New York cabbies, its fine. Communicating with others the way both of you understand is acceptable. Writting a graded report with "1337"-like words throughout is not. English has some basic rules you can follow. Such as after a . you capitalize the next word. I'm fine to people typing MBG to me. But a "mbg u there i need help my server wont work can u fix for me" is not.

Gravitron - Wed Apr 02, 2003 4:22 pm
Post subject:

Mine Be Gone? *wink*

Do you know that several education systems now consider southpark a material worthy of learning and analysing in social studies, or related to such, classes?
On the first look, you might think it is rather vulgar, inappropriate, indignified, etc. etc.
On a deeper look, you find a sarcastic and, at times, even educational message about the society and world we live in, past and present.
It forces you to confront with the ugly reality while giving the masses the view of the justice and a world that should be instead of the current reality.
People have a tendancy to fear the new, percive it as threatening.
There was a time where as rock'n'roll was considered outragous and subversive, now a days we have heavy metal next to which rock'n'roll resembles more of a naive and suiting for children image.

Quite frankly, I, personally, embraces this new preception.
I like the notion of a global village, I like more directness and openness.
I like a community that be it black, jew or budahist, all behave and treat eachother as if they were atheist.
And act together for the benefits of all humanity, rather than to induldge in meaningless politics, lies and manipulations.
To a point where we won't need intelligence agencies, to corrupt, infiltrate and such, because there will be so many who do belive in such a way of life, as such that their combined strength will be so tramendous it will easily be able to sweep any perpetrator that will try to exploit them for their personal gains via "old fashion, long-out-of-world's-way, dirty tactics".
Naturally I am not naive to think this will happen, even in my grandchildren's life time, but it is something to aspire, work and hope for.

On a side note, without traditional-stuckups and censor, much of our comedy will be ruined.
Such is the paradox.
The bane of profanity and such, lead to great comedy.
Much of 'Married With Children' was based upon talks and insinuation about sex, not the explicit broadcasting of sexual acts.
I do belive that if we actually saw Kelly selling/whoring herself it will degrade the show's level of humor.
If such material was abundant and permitted, there will be no fun nor humorous thing attracting to view the show (outside the porno channel at the least).
Being marked "taboo" is part of what makes the issue so funny to talk and insinuate about, there's an element of excitement while dealing with "forbidden" topics.
The same apply to censored-curses.
If you could hear on TV someone say "fuck you, mother fucker, ass licker, cock muncher, pee drinker" etc. etc. it will hardly be as funny as hearing long beeps with mild stops between them insinuating a long string of curses, while since you cannot hear the actual curse you can enjoy by letting your imagination go wild.
By thinking "gee, how long he's cursing, he must be saying bad words" and imagining what possibly can be so harsh that the character is saying that they censored him all the way, you create an effect of mystery-driven interest, which leads to bigger enjoyment out of the foggy/hazy/vague curse string, even it is censored by beeps and bleeps than hearing the actual curse words.
Eventually, just like the conservatives have adapted to rock'n'roll, generations will pass and people will get used to being more free speech and more open minded.
And just like the french assimilated "commo", which has started rather as a slang term, onto their mundane language, so will southpark and incorrect/improper speech will make their way onto official school essays and mundane life.
Because, as the great (I forgot) had said : "that which does not bend - breakes!".

On a side note, I capitalize Is as a force of habbit, as it was part of the grade on exams, we would lose a point or two for not capitalizing, so eventually I've learned to do it as a second nature, and continue doing so ever since.
When I begun typing on computers, I got used to shift-capitalizing my Is pretty fast, so I never had a trouble in that department, I am also a very fast (blind) typer and easily oriented with the keyboard.
In addition, why can't I call you MG, the B is an obvious to follow...eventually.
Especially since that when I write it I do not think "mmm, geee" but rather "mine go" and "mine go boom", gosh darn it, is just too long of a string. *short gigle*

You realise that you are being a hypocrite.
On one side typing with many flaws, on the other critisizing those who do too or even worse and state that you simply ignore their posts.
I am very much infurious when people, who themselves can barely type correctly, critisize me with nasty comments about my spelling and grammatic capabilities.
Where as it is their native tongue, English is further down that line for me.
And sometimes, I may even be more profficient in English than they are, which is quite sad to my humble opinion.

As for as having the time and being able to correct your input...
That is ussualy only done when you present an important document.
Such as one that will be published by the media, an educational project, scientific research, work related analasys or a speech and etc..
In the world of today, especially when we are not dealing with a matter that is to be dealt proffesionaly, we do things fast.
Time is money and all...
So unless you suffer of lack of confidence, you will ussually type fast what you have to say and submit it forth.
Only later you will go over it again and submit additional revisions if nessecary.

In regards to "mbg u there i need help my server wont work can u fix for me", remember:
After all, this is YOUR server help site, you took upon yourself that responsibility to help others.
And this is a friendly (in theory), entertainment environment, so people talk impersonally/unofficially with each other.
So, unless you have a quell with the fellow, he is your long time enemy or has done something to offend or hurt you, I do suggest that you take the opportunity to enter this "global village" state of mind and help the poor lad instead of being a drill seargant and demanding command-officer like respect.
Instead, gain respect for acting kindly towards your "peers" to the game.

Disclaimer:
I am a human fuckin' being.
I am a megalomaniac.
I am not a hypocrite, I am just incapable of following my better judgement and submit to my humanoid anger-driven emotions.
If you want to be hated by half the community like me, please, fight against the unopposeable, try to correct the human race, preach on - make people sick of you, and break and lose it five times a day and go on a rage madness run.
Otherwise, hid my advices, be nice, be cooperative, flatter people, flow with things, if you think someone is a complete moron racist scum and you can't stand them - just stfu and try to ignore and nod, do all that and you shall be rewarded, maybe even get billing op.

Anna-Puma - Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:40 pm
Post subject:

I am a human fuckin' being.
I am a megalomaniac.
I am not a hypocrite, I am just incapable of following my better judgement and submit to my humanoid anger-driven emotions.
If you want to be hated by half the community like me, please, fight against the unopposeable, try to correct the human race, preach on - make people sick of you, and break and lose it five times a day and go on a rage madness run.
Otherwise, hid my advices, be nice, be cooperative, flatter people, flow with things, if you think someone is a complete moron racist scum and you can't stand them - just stfu and try to ignore and nod, do all that and you shall be rewarded,

Another of lifes little mottos. I like it Grav.

Mine GO BOOM - Wed Apr 02, 2003 8:57 pm
Post subject:

I knew i'd deal with people like this well in advanced. Since a good bit of the sysops start before they can legally drink (assuming US laws), i accepted this. Just found an article that its spreading to those that SHOULD know better, don't. I do assist those that ask like this, just it happens to be much harder to understand what they are asking for.

As for people not liking me: Remember, my Amateur League squad was kicked for the ref not liking us. Ahh.. the Mine Plowers squad.. Anyways, people dislike others for their own reasons (still don't understand/know zippy's), and i'm immune to it mostly. I try to stay unbias and assist others, but every now and then i do say something people will have different opinions on it, such as this.

To each his own.

Gravitron - Thu Apr 03, 2003 3:18 am
Post subject:

Well, I rather understand zippo.
His way is not exactly my way, but it is still a better one than the path we currently walk in.
All in all, he's still one of the better guys around than some of the rest.
As for that ref, just have a little chat with the biller about him...

By the way, what are the qualifications for joining your squad?

Helicon - Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:22 pm
Post subject:

lets have a big fight.
lets have it starting now.
lets blow the crap out of each other.
lets have a mad rush for power.
lets have people getting pissed and leaving....
when its all said and done we'll probably have a few things:

A new server/map/gfx management tool
a Kick*ss new server, with options up the wazoo
new freaking gfx
Responsible, autocratic staff
4 or 5 main zones
One goddam biller

let us not forget.... dictatorship is the most efficient form of government. lets elect a dictator...how? hows about a rousing game of survivor of the fittest?

Dr Brain - Fri Apr 04, 2003 9:52 am
Post subject:

Im working on that one biller part.

The 4-5 main zones already exists, just we have 20-30 secondary zones.

New GFX will be more common with the .jpg and .gif support.

New server = ASSS

The new utils are in progress by a number of different people.

See, we didn't even have to fight

Helicon - Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:31 pm
Post subject:

you didnt mention

Quote:

Responsible, autocratic staff

Gravitron - Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:08 pm
Post subject:

Guys, stick to the subject please.
You don't want to force MGB to put me as a mod for TT...now do you?

Dr Brain - Fri Apr 04, 2003 11:31 pm
Post subject:

Ya, must have missed that one, Heli. Anyway, grav is right...

Helicon - Sat Apr 05, 2003 12:15 am
Post subject:

thread topic == everybody's pissed (because minor-age morons run free 2d games?)

Trash Talk? oh yeah

Gravitron wrote:

Gravitron - Sat Apr 05, 2003 12:47 am
Post subject:

I'm staff, MGB is vroom, we're allowed to side step.
You, however, are not.

To quote from SNAFU, yap, I'm pulling rank.

Helicon - Sat Apr 05, 2003 11:51 am
Post subject:

This could get flame-o-fantastic really quick.

Quote:

"All authority remains an illusory perception of immenent power, a manipulated foreshadowing of fear. A worthy tactic, assuming the proletariat do not mind being afraid."

I am done now

If anything, internet shorthand, on the accepted scale that it has reached (the interrnet), is a welcome addition and revision of the language. i do not say this because l337 is terribly cool, in fact im fairly sure that fascination will pass time, but the abbreviations for "I hav got 2 give u $ 4 lunch" make communication vastly more efficient, especially in digital terms. How many of us at college as waiters wrote "leave out the____" more than 100 times? "86 ____", tried and true works just as well, 3X as fast. Such an increase in efficiency is welcome.
there is something to be said for formality: it distances oneself from what one perceives as the "lower" and the "less educated". The "value of words" is a romantic, not terribly pragmatic ideal. i think that we will find that as "traditional" methods of communication fall the language itself will become more standardized, more flexible, extensible, and more efficient. I wouldn't mind that?