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Bot Questions - Bot core selection

Anonymous - Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:13 pm
Post subject: Bot core selection

As far as functinality is concerned what is the bot core of choice?

TWcore is java
Merv is C

but other than that they seem fairly comparable. Merv seems to have more support outside of TW. Any reason for this? I guess no one is using / developing for powerbot anymore..closed source? Are there any other bot cores to consider?

Are there any major differences in the function these bots provide? It appears that the development platform is the driving force behind selection.

Dr Brain - Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:46 pm
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I'll assume you have equal knowledge of both C++ and Java, and that's why you're asking.

If you're going to be doing any database work, I would suggest TWCore. Additionally, I find Java easier to use for complex constructs. I used TWCore to load in FACTS generated images of the map and have it warp people around based on that. I think something like that would be much harder on C++.

Merv has the advantage of lots of example code, but TWCore still has enough to get you started, and the internals are decently commented.

I really like TWCore, and I would say the only reason to pick Merv is if you want to use one or two of the already developed plugins in addition to what you're making, rather than running both cores.

Cerium - Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:55 pm
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Sigh, I hate shameless advertising, but whatever...

As far as core functionality, Hybrid (java-based) wins hands down. The downside is it has a steeper learning curve (or so I hear...), and doesnt have much in terms of examples or preexisting code. If you go with Hybrid, youll be writing a lot of your bots (see: all). Aside from that, the TWCore is fairly easy to work with and you can find roughly 7 billion premade bots to use as a starting point.

To summarize: Hybrid if youre well versed with Java, or TWCore if you lack experience/patience.

Cyan~Fire - Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:53 am
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Indeed, as much as I hate Java, I'd say TWCore is probably a better bot than MERV. But ASSS is the future, don't worry about bots.

D1st0rt - Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:14 pm
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Cerium and Cyan are both correct. TWCore has a lot of preexisting bots and is much easier to work with, in my opinion, for someone with little experience. At some point hopefully before I die the next version of TWCore will be released which already has considerable usability improvements over the current public version. Hybrid has some wicked stuff but you do have to write basically all of your bots from scratch. Cyan is also correct in his statement that ASSS is far superior to bots, but it also has probably the steepest learning curve and highest demand for patience in all of the SS community.

If you could elaborate a little on what you planned to do, we could probably pick which option would be best for you.

SamHughes - Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:53 pm
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I was able to make a bot and get it working in TWCore with no Java knowledge and little C++ knowledge to cross-over from, so I can't not recommend TWCore.

freakmonger - Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:43 am
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I would have to vote for hybrid myself. As I've used the hybrid core for awhile now. Yes all this is true though about having to make all of your own bots from scratch but thats the best way sometimes.

Anonymous - Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:32 pm
Post subject:

I'm working with a small team to update the bot for SSCX Warzone CTF. This is basically what we will be doing:

-port the existing functionality our current bots provide
-implement new functionality and scalability not present in our current bots
-document the process so future staff, developers, and sysops can benefit from and utilize the features of a new core bot.
-allow continued development through availability of source code and existing modules.

Bearing in mind that 1-2 years down the road ASSS may be a viable consideration we are looking for a bot core that has the following characteristics:

Stability
Documentation
Community support (for development)
Relatively low learning curve
Some available prewritten modules (basic features)

Although it is not necessary a java environment is slightly more appealing for development because we have a couple team members who are more readily familar with java than C++, but we've programmed in both before.

Based on the research that I've done I believe that TWcore is going to be the best selection to fit our needs.

There seems to be some very knowledgeable people here, and I appreciate the responses. I expect we'll be here occasionally in the future. so I guess I'd better register.

Thankyou.

Dr Brain - Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:34 pm
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In that case, you want ASSS and not a bot. It's not something that will only be a good idea two years in the future. It's a good idea now.

The problem most people have with ASSS is that they don't want to rewrite their bots. You have the perfect oppurtunity right in front of you.

Cerium - Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:09 am
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The bigger problem is that im sure theyre stuck with subgame for a while, so ASSS probably wont be an option in the immediate future.

Dr Brain - Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:05 am
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And what, pray tell, is tying them to subgame? The bots is the answer most people give.

Cerium - Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:09 pm
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Well, chances are its the same thing keeping chaos on subgame:

(1) Admins with the ability to change unwilling/perma afk
(2) Staff with very little knowledge of running subgame, would be completely helpless on ASSS.
(3) Strong belief that subgame is more stable/secure/whatever
(4) Zone doesnt use anything that _needs_ ASSS, meaning bots can do everything necessary.
(5) Some faggot like phong could use the switch to get themselves various privledges, only to turn around and attack the zone.

Id have to open my logs to find the other reasons people gave for why we didnt switch.

D1st0rt - Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:35 pm
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If they are already on SSCX, wouldn't the switch to SSCX-A be fairly seamless?

Dr Brain - Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:48 pm
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Cerium wrote:

(1) Admins with the ability to change unwilling/perma afk

Seems like a silly excuse.

Cerium wrote:

(2) Staff with very little knowledge of running subgame, would be completely helpless on ASSS.

Retards shouldn't be staff. If they can't make the switch from /*kill to /?kick, they shouldn't be staff.

Cerium wrote:

(3) Strong belief that subgame is more stable/secure/whatever

Myths aren't easy to dismiss.

Cerium wrote:

(4) Zone doesnt use anything that _needs_ ASSS, meaning bots can do everything necessary.

They don't need the bots either, but they still use them.

Cerium wrote:

(5) Some faggot like phong could use the switch to get themselves various privledges, only to turn around and attack the zone.

Why does a zone employ people that would do that in the first place?

Anyway, I think it's worth noting that he expected to move to ASSS at some point in the future.

freakmonger - Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:52 am
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Dr Brain wrote:

Why does a zone employ people that would do that in the first place?

I guess you're missing the background/history on that situation..

Muskrat - Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:40 am
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I'd say the answer he was implying there was "because they're stupid". No background required

Cerium - Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:01 am
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(1) True, but a lot of SSCX 'policies' are silly. A lot of my events were never finished because of zone politics and such.
Speaking of silly, Mr. Guest, can you please tell Wonderer to go fuck himself? Thanks.

(2) Its more than just one command, and there are a number of other differences as well. Secondly, there are a ton of people on 'staff' who dont even know the subgame commands yet. Stupid, yes, but thats how it works.

(3) Some people prefer software A over software B. Sometimes they have reasons, other times its preference. Combine this with #1...

(4) I think you misunderstood me.

(5) In the case of phong, the faggot is bipolar. Sure, he was all helpful when he was going to host the new ASSS server, but as soon as he decided not to and I told him to stop using the smod password, he lost his stupid mind.
Sadly, there are many players like him. Infact, Im sure you can think of a few yourself.

Dr Brain - Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:47 am
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Cerium wrote:

In my zone, I can do whatever the hell I want. I've never had an issue with SSCX management coming in and saying I couldn't do something. Not once.

Cerium wrote:

(2) Its more than just one command, and there are a number of other differences as well. Secondly, there are a ton of people on 'staff' who dont even know the subgame commands yet. Stupid, yes, but thats how it works.

If they don't know the subgame commands, how will switching to ASSS screw them up?

Cerium wrote:

(3) Some people prefer software A over software B. Sometimes they have reasons, other times its preference. Combine this with #1...

Lets take an analogy. Microsoft Paint. Some people use it for all their image editing needs. The GIMP can do everything paint can, and a thousand times more. It's entirely free, and runs without a hitch on windows. Still people use paint... why? Not because they have a software preference of A over B (to have a preference, you need to have used both, btw), it's because they don't want to change how they do things. So, if you and your zone want to spend your days filling in pictures pixel by pixel to get the right shading on that image, be my guest. I'm just here to let you know that you don't have to.

Cerium wrote:

(4) I think you misunderstood me.

I understood you. I think you misunderstood me. I was redirecting your argument towards bots (something every zone now "needs"). Bots are non-essential for 99% of zones (not counting events). But that doesn't stop every zone from putting a bot into spec in their main arena. My point is that ASSS is like that. It can be non-essential, but still provide services that make it totally worth using, even if you're not in the 1% that *needs* it.

Cerium wrote:

(5) In the case of phong, the faggot is bipolar. Sure, he was all helpful when he was going to host the new ASSS server, but as soon as he decided not to and I told him to stop using the smod password, he lost his stupid mind.
Sadly, there are many players like him. Infact, Im sure you can think of a few yourself.

Yes, I know players like that. Shortly after they lost their minds, they were fired from staff. I don't see why that's complicated. It's not the US government here, you can fire people.

Lithium_X - Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:08 pm
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As it stands right now we are not going to asss, but I look forward to a time when we can, and possibly bring together some zones in the process.

The main reason why we are developing is for the availabilty of a functional and adjustable league bot. That is the imperative reason, and unfortunately we will be stuck with our old league bot for this season which is starting shortly.

Alternately there are a number of additions and augmentations / features that we would like to add to the main arena and develop in subarenas. Development under a new bot core will provide a means for this as well, and documenting any modules written now will help later as reference when we eventually move to asss.

D1st0rt - Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:03 am
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It sounds like you mainly want the core for a league bot, which would have to be written from scratch. If that is the case, I'd go with Hybrid.