Server Help :: View topic - SSR Backstabbed

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Trash Talk - SSR Backstabbed

Confess - Wed May 11, 2005 11:10 pm
Post subject: SSR Backstabbed

Well...you've seen it before with me and SSA.
Same thing happened this time. I was backstabbed and SSR was taken over by MasterTriforce Cybersnipe and Acekiller12. If they are this untrustworthy, i suggest you do not let them host you.

I am forcing them to remove the biller and SSR name. I plan on reopening the biller with a new host (of which i will not give the name yet).

They no longer have the rights to use the name SSR nor do they have the rights to use the SSR Biller or anything included with teh biller (user.dat, database, etc.)

If you can help me take this network down, please help me. I do not want them using my files/name. You have my permission to hack the server, or do whatever is nessecary. SSRE and SSRT are on my side. So dont bug em

Just SSR(D).

I really hate being back stabbed...But i have to admit, i saw this coming.

Not only this, but they have been spitting out lies and such. It is very sad that they do that...

These guys are cowards, if you have to send one of your netops to say "You are banned blah blah blah" and wont even give the reason, simply because you fucked me? You'll get what you deserve.

I have done so much shit for you...why would you put out friendship in jepardy?

Basically (for those that want to know what happened) Cyber was suppose to setup remote desktop, and not ever touch the biller without permission, along with treating me with the utmost respect. He did not hold up his part of the bargain.
They had removed me from the biller because i ?kicked MasterTriforce because he was disrespecting me, and i admit, in order to MESS with him, simply to have fun, i did do a couple ?broadcast, but i did not only do it to him, but to others. I did it.....3 times? and thats total, out of all. He knew i was messing with him, but he decided he wanted to try and get me in trouble. He went to cyber, cyber removed me. I told him to re-add me and setup rd, (holding up hos part of the bargain) he said no, i gave him a tiem limit to take down the biller. He is now pissed off at me because he knows he cannot use the biller, and that he is 'stealing'.

When he found out that i was going to start up another biller, he decided to ban me.

Please help me in any way possible.

A380 - Thu May 12, 2005 5:36 am
Post subject:

Who is the owner of SSR? Some one told me it was Purge+ and you.

Agurus - Thu May 12, 2005 8:02 am
Post subject:

Confess wrote:

I am forcing them to remove the biller and SSR name. Iyet).

They no longer have the rights to use the name SSR nor do they have the rights to use the SSR Biller or anything included with teh biller (user.dat, database, etc.)

You might have a chance under copyright laws, but truly I don't think ANYONE cares for a dead biller.

Quote:

my permission to hack the server, or do whatever is nessecary.

That just shows how low your are willing to get, just for a biller. True might be your own work, but you should have chose smartly the abuse you did.

Quote:

It is very sad that they do that

Not really completly fair. Read below

Quote:

hey had removed me from the biller because i ?kicked MasterTriforce because he was disrespecting me, and i admit, in order to MESS with him, simply to have fun, i did do a couple ?broadcast, but i did not only do it to him, but to others. I did it.....3 times?

Heh that has ABUSE of POWER all over it, its like saying:
"Ughhh why are you banning me?, I just banned a NetOP for the fun of it, and did a couple of ?broadcast making fun of him, I only did it 3 times thats all!! Why are you banning me I didn't do anything!!" That right there is a perfectly good reason to boot you, I'm sure cybersnipe hates people like that.

Quote:

gave him a tiem limit to take down the biller

.
Yeah, that isn't helping the situation at ALL. Your just pissing him off more, and he will never resolve issue.

Quote:

He is now pissed off at me because he knows he cannot use the biller, and that he is 'stealing'.

Ugh, No he's not lol.

Quote:

When he found out that i was going to start up another biller, he decided to ban me.

No, I think he banned you because you abused your power, and are giving him lousy threats to remove; he probally isn't going to get back the work you give him, get used to that; as well you probally arn't going to sue him over a free online game, over a shitty server and biller (no offence).

Thats pretty much all, I have to say for this issue. I am pretty sure NO one here is willing to help. Not tryign to be negitive but saying the truth..

SSR is a biller that WAS owned by Confess+, and purge+ but purge+ left, now owned by cyber.

Pincode - Thu May 12, 2005 10:43 am
Post subject:

I'm just glad I use the SSI biller oppose to any other one.

CypherJF - Thu May 12, 2005 12:08 pm
Post subject:

Yawn, give the initials back to its rightful owner, me.

Muskrat - Thu May 12, 2005 2:53 pm
Post subject:

SSR was taken over by MasterTriforce Cybersnipe and Acekiller12. If they are this untrustworthy, I suggest you do not give them lvl 0 netop in the first place.

Agurus - Thu May 12, 2005 4:07 pm
Post subject:

SSI, indeed is a great server for zones not fully capable for SSC, but for a good start (better than most of the shitty servers newbs make).

MasterTriforce - Thu May 12, 2005 4:14 pm
Post subject:

I'm sorry, but this is all crap.

The co-owners of SSR were:
Confess+, Purge+, and Cybersnipe

Purge got sick of confess messing with him and left SSR because it was "too stressful."

That leaves Cyber and Confess.

Confess abused ?broadcast more then just 3 times. He even did a "?broadcast WARNING Disconnected from server" see how many people on the biller would leave.

He harrassed me many times. Most of the time using ?broadcast, another time by promising me Lvl 4 NetOp (as both himself and cyber agreed) but making my login password "ilikethecock". Another time he "proposed" to me over the SSR public chat and when I ?ignored him, he ?kicked me, 3 times.

Confess has this attitude that he is "higher then god." He thinks that everyone has to obey him or die. He talks about disrespect, but at the same time says "He knew i was messing with him." All I said was that he was acting immature and he kicked me.

After this and more, cyber got fed up with it. He held a poll among the hosted zone owners and not a single one voted for confess to stay. He removed him from NetOp and left it at that.

Yesterday, Confess came in harrassing zone owners for voting against him and would not stop after being warned. So Cyber and myself banned him.

I think he deserved what was coming. He once said he doesn't care for any zone but his own. This is not the attitude of a Host. He should care for all of his hosted zone. Not just dictate over them.

newb - Thu May 12, 2005 4:46 pm
Post subject:

TriForces side of the story seemed to of make more sense than Confess' statement.

Shadow-Assassin - Thu May 12, 2005 4:49 pm
Post subject:

Confess+ was giving me, Cybersnipe, and MasterTriforce crap, and was harrassing us about the biller. Like he said, he gave Cyber untill today to shut the biller down and .zip it and send it to him.

He was harrassing all three of us the other day. He was telling me that he spent "countless hours" on getting my zone hosted. When he only helped me get my zone on the biller, so I could host from home. A while later, I was having problems with the biller, so Purge+ had me talk to someone, so that they could host me. Confess+ only helped me for about 15 minutes, and every time I asked him for help before, he wouldn't help. He was "busy".

There's more to it, but MasterTriforce said all that I would have said.

Purge - Thu May 12, 2005 4:59 pm
Post subject:

Confess, you posting like this for people to resolve your own problems is quite stupid.

As Mtri said, I left SSR because I couldn't work with Confess+...it just won't happen. As a suggestion for you, Confess, do NOT get another server that you will also boss around, and then claim ownership of, and then you can see it crumble down again like your previous zone. If you leave SSR as is, then you won't even have problems. I'm not siding by anyone in this situation, but you, Confess, have a bad way of getting things the way you like it.

And I'll say this publicly so you won't start bothering me again - No, you cannot use my server for the next network you're trying to build!

Confess - Thu May 12, 2005 5:47 pm
Post subject:

I think you all know me pretty well...And i think you guys know that i am an honest man. I state teh truth, and nothing but the truth, when i say something is going to be done, it gets done. I need help regaining my rightful ownership of SSR, ill leave it at that. Im pleading out to you for help. Cyber is untrustworthy. It is rec. you do not let him or ace host you.

MTR, you've known me also for a pretty dang long time. You know when im kidding, and when im messing around. You know my humor, which only leads me to believe that you wanted me outta SSR from the start. As soon as you saw your oppertunity, you took it.

#1 I NEVER did a ?broadcast Warning:Dissconnected from server
#2 As for the password, you where not suppose to get netop till the server move, which, me being a nice guy, gave you access. Not my fault if you didnt like your login. You can simply change it ya know? I had planned on changing it on the server move. But when i found out that you where such a straight up ass, i did not want you on the biller till the next attack on your zone.
#3 There where only....5 people on the biller at the time i did a ?broadcast "You have my permission to call MTRI "my bitch"

" and of these 5 people, me and you where 2 of them, the other 3 where close friends.
#4 I went into the zones asking why they did this. We WERE good friends, notice the WERE. I had done so much for you guys...its not even funny..Who manages the biller? Who had the final say on whether or not you got Netop? I never said i spent "countless hours on getting you host" and if I did, you misinterpretted what i meant. Member when you where trying to start up your server? And i tried helping you for...a couple hours? And finally had to call in a friend?
#5 I was never warned, ONCE.
#6 Even if i was warned, you where given no right to remove the owner of the biller/network name
#7 Where do you get three out of 2?
#8 Why are you cowards?
#9 "He once said he doesn't care for any zone but his own. This is not the attitude of a Host. He should care for all of his hosted zone. Not just dictate over them." i have NEVER said this, EVER. Why would i go into networking if this was true?
#10 - to muskrat- I was forced after purge left to relocate the biller. I was had to give it to cyber.
#11 How can we believe you, purge, if you are the one that said "A tech guy at our school is gonna give me 10k/year to let me let him use my server"
#12 I havn't talked to cyber since....he removed me.
#13 Agurus....stop acting like someone you arent,eh?
#14 I wrote that article up real late. so excuse any errors/etc.

MasterTriforce - Thu May 12, 2005 6:20 pm
Post subject:

I refuse to argue with you anymore, I just have to add something I forgot before. You CANNOT give someone permission to hack SSR, for most if not all of it is on Cyber's computer. Hacking is illegal all together, but you can't give ANYONE permission to hack cyber's computer.

I'm not going to argue over this; you lost because you think you are above everyone else. If you oppress someone for so long, once they get a chance to bite back, they will.

Every zone you ever owned or helped has died or is dying. Ever wonder why?

Shadow-Assassin - Thu May 12, 2005 6:25 pm
Post subject:

Quote:

#1 I NEVER did a ?broadcast Warning:Dissconnected from server

Yes, you did you a ?broadcast WARNING: Disconnected from server

Because I thought that I got d/c, but people were still talking to my in my zone. Only 5 people on the network? Bull, I always have at least 3 bots running, plus me, cyber, mtri, you, a visitors, + the bots from other zones. That at least 10 people right there.

You say the truth, and nothing but the truth? Then you can ask Cybersnipe or Mtri about the "countless hours". I sent them the entire conversation that you and I had on subspace the other night.

You only helped me for no more than 20 minutes with my zone, not a couple of hours. Purge+ helped me out the rest.

Yes, you were warned. Quite a few times by Cyber.

Quote:

#8 Why are you cowards?

How are we cowards? We removed you from NetOp because you were abusing powers

And I agree with Purge, why do you come to others to solve your problems?

AstroProdigy - Thu May 12, 2005 6:32 pm
Post subject: Sigh

Ok confess; If you're just gonna lie then there is no point arguing with you.

Agurus - Thu May 12, 2005 6:58 pm
Post subject:

Heh confess you take things seriously, and over all your left with NOTHING. Your just a wandering newb who wants something you can never have, this is a GAME, don't go beserk and "try" to control everything the way you want.

Overall Tri's story is probally more real than yours, you're just overthinking your abuses, and throwing more shit on top to make it look it wasn't your fault that you abused. PLus your side just changes in each post

.

As well, it is useless to argue with you, b/c no one will care to listen, and you just keep on demanding and demanding...
As astro said there isn't anypoint in arguing with you.

Solo Ace - Thu May 12, 2005 6:59 pm
Post subject:

<1stStrike power>Okay kids, take a chill pill.</1stStrike power>

Anonymous - Thu May 12, 2005 7:49 pm
Post subject:

Confess, don;t bother to make another post, it won't change ANYTHING other than you making yourself look yet again even more stupid.

Anonymous - Thu May 12, 2005 9:03 pm
Post subject: thnx for the support.

First of all I would like to thank everyone for supporting this issue with our network with an open mind. I'm glad that ppl realize that I wasnt trying to take over anything in the first place. I , and so have many as you can see have realized how one person can do so much damage with ignorance. To not even make the name , biller , zone or anything and try to take credit for those that have busted their ass shows the pompus , disrespectufull attitude of an indivusual that doesnt need to be part of anything !

NOTHING of SSR is related to Confess , nor are their any rights for somthing that wasnt created by him! SSR was a network started to help those who are not rdy for a major server,but needed a good host to show their work. It has been in my belief that SSR is for the players ran by the players. I have allways believed in giving everyone a chance and not keep them from trying to get a start. SS is a free game that ppl can play across many computers and networks. This whole game is kept going by the players. I personally have seen over the years how this game has grown and how it still can grow!

With that said it again is just still a GAME! And many that seem to have nothing better to do go nuts trying to make a name for themselves. Hince Confess who has done nothing to improve SSR or let alone done nothing to improve anything related to SS alone or any work that is related to him . I will not waste my time or others time with arguing that fact! All this drama has been created by another sad indivisual that has done nothing to improve themself or to help other ,but yet take credit for it . And I truely feel sry for that indivisual .With all this crap said .. I again thank those that have helped and have helped the SSR network and done everything to improve or world known as Continuum.

-Cybersnipe,
SSR Host / Owner

SamHughes - Thu May 12, 2005 9:06 pm
Post subject:

1. Kick people (especially one whose name comes from an excellent set of video games) just because you like to mess with them.
2. Misuse ?broadcast messages and "not only do it to him, but to others" as well.
3. Complain about getting "backstabbed" for your juvenescence.
4. ...
5. Profit?

I would do the same "backstabbing" for any of the above actions performed individually. And then maybe I'd quarter you and behead you, and then stick your head up on a post as a warning to others.

And then you lie. Which is the worst crime of all. It is obvious that you performed the "?broadcast WARNING Disconnected from server", as there is no need for MasterTriforce to make that up -- you gave him more than enough ammunition for character assassination in your original posting. Why should anybody believe somebody who has proven character flaws?

Anonymous - Thu May 12, 2005 10:48 pm
Post subject: Ahem

If you are only going to reiterate what others have said purely for the sake of ganging up on Confess+, do not post. It is ridiculous for the same thing to be said over and over again in the first place, but even more ridiculous if you have nothing to do with this issue and are only going by what other people have posted already. Yes, Confess+ should have been banned... but No, 100 people do not need to post the same thing - especially if you don't know what you are talking about. Yes, MTri, Cyber, and others that have a part in this have a right and good reason to post - but those that are just reading this and passing their own judgements can keep their comments to themselves. (This post being aimed at Sam Hughes who is just butting in to make him feel better about himself by putting down someone else.)

Confess - Thu May 12, 2005 11:29 pm
Post subject:

Nothing is owned by me cyber? The biller, my copy, my database, does not belong to me? Should i go get the man who gave it to me?

Cyber, remember this. You came in AFTER purge and i where going to start the network. Either way, whether it is forcibly or not, you ARE going to stop using the name SSR and you ARE going to stop using the biller. I could care less what any of you say, fact is you DONT have all of your facts straight. I come asking for help, yet you post, flame, and say you where there when you werent? I have never done a ?broadcast Warning:Dissconnected from server.
I also said 5 or so PEOPLE not bots

SamHughes - Fri May 13, 2005 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: Ahem

None wrote:

Everything you say unparenthesized is true, except for, of course, your imperative sentences, which by their very nature have no such label.

No, I am posting out of anger at all the people who degrade the game of SubSpace. If you don't like my post, and if you find such posts unnecessary, I recommend doing something more productive with your time than writing uppity replies in order to make yourself feel better.

Maverick - Fri May 13, 2005 3:12 am
Post subject:

This is soo good for SSR reputation

Agurus - Fri May 13, 2005 7:40 am
Post subject:

Lol, yeah this is going to be a gay discussion which will go no were; confess ranting; and the sudden flow of "guests" and new members posting shit about his rants. 'o' well this topic useless now.

Anonymous - Fri May 13, 2005 8:05 am
Post subject:

I don't get it... why is Agurus always trying to be the "cool" person and end topics? Guess another noob's gonna have to..

Solo Ace - Fri May 13, 2005 9:32 am
Post subject:

I'm the only cool person here, and I ended the topic, the other things are a thread overflow with more unneeded information.

Edit: Yeah, I only put the first 'n' in information, but I didn't like the comment I put here, so I guess this edit 4.

Maverick - Fri May 13, 2005 2:16 pm
Post subject:

The End

Anonymous - Fri May 13, 2005 2:33 pm
Post subject: Ahem

Sam Hughes - what did I say that wasn't true? You have no place in this whole ordeal saying that Confess lied. Have you even ever played on the SSR Biller? You have nothing to do with the situation. Quit posting. Mind your own business.

Anonymous - Fri May 13, 2005 3:01 pm
Post subject:

Surely you knew that this is forum, not a private forum?

Confess+ - From what I read, I think you deserve to be banned from the internet.

Oh, by the way; Isn't you in ssforum.net that has -

"It's people like YOU that ruin subspace!"

MasterTriforce - Fri May 13, 2005 4:17 pm
Post subject:

Someone do the forums a favor and delete this topic. As they were saying, its useless.

Confess, a useful quote:

Quote:

Arguing on the Internet is like playing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, your still a retard.

Cyan~Fire - Fri May 13, 2005 5:54 pm
Post subject:

Yeah, Agurus, this topic is half as bad as the Halo CTF topics, so we should definitely stop.

And MTri, topics don't get deleted or even locked here, but they die if you stop posting. I recommend you do so. Just take the satisfaction of knowing that you've won, even if the other doesn't know.

Oh, and I guess I should state my opinion. Never give anyone power if you don't trust them. Never give anyone power equal to your own.

Solo Ace - Fri May 13, 2005 6:06 pm
Post subject:

I'll count you!

I don't give anyone power equal to my own, and I never give higher powers either.
Anyone want root on this private obsd box?

1stStrike - Fri May 13, 2005 6:23 pm
Post subject:

Hey solo, stop doing my job for me. You're not qualified.

And this is why I do everything myself. All these people think they need 4 or 5 netops to run a biller when there's like 6 players on the whole biller when it first starts. You can do everything yourself and not run into problems.

Hell, SSC has a large population and there's really only about 4 people with real netop powers for the entire population. Hint Hint.

Also, if you ever threatened my network and something happened I'd have my lawyer write you a friendly letter.

Confess - Fri May 13, 2005 7:11 pm
Post subject:

1st....sigh....do i need to restate this again? Damn you! Read all the post before posting

Purge quit, biller forcibly relocated...etc..

Also, its "People like you KILL subspace!"

1stStrike - Fri May 13, 2005 7:22 pm
Post subject:

Confess wrote:

1st....sigh....do i need to restate this again? Damn you! Read all the post before posting

Purge quit, biller forcibly relocated...etc..

Also, its "People like you KILL subspace!"

I read the topic and no matter what they did that doesn't give anybody the right to hack, DoS, DDoS, etc.

You're the problem taking it to this length. Also you showed a lack of maturity by even stating something like that.

Solo Ace - Sat May 14, 2005 4:13 am
Post subject:

DoS my 56k off, biatch!

I'm not qualified? Pfft, you should be glad I do some work for you, since you're always so busy doing, uhm...

Let's just go completely off topic to make them stop arguing!

Maverick - Sat May 14, 2005 8:02 am
Post subject:

You abused, Confess, so ...

Confess wrote:

its "People like you KILL subspace!"

sctrictly speaking subspace is already dead. We are all playing continuum, not subspace.

Maverick - Sat May 14, 2005 8:08 am
Post subject:

MasterTriforce wrote:

Quote:

Arguing on the Internet is like playing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, your still a retard.

Solo Ace - Sat May 14, 2005 8:09 am
Post subject:

Sctrictly speaking?

You must be one of those idiots who you have to tell the train was actually moving (forwards) when you tell someone jumped in front of the train.

Agurus - Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 pm
Post subject:

ROFL, 1st just made confess+ cry

SamHughes - Sat May 14, 2005 10:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Ahem

None wrote:

Sam Hughes - what did I say that wasn't true?

When a person says, "Pick up that piece of cardboard," he or she has made a statement that is not true. It is not false, either, since it's not a statement of fact. It's an imperative sentence.

Your post contains imperative sentences. So not everything in your post is true. I was being one of those literal people who have to say the train is moving when I mention that somebody jumped in front of a train.

None wrote:

Quit posting. Mind your own business.

Sorry, you asked a question, so I thought it polite to answer.

Anonymous - Sun May 15, 2005 1:55 pm
Post subject: Ahem

You're an idiot and it is true that you need to stop posting. Ha

newb - Sun May 15, 2005 2:13 pm
Post subject:

He isn't an idiot.

And it's not true he needs to stop posting. He can post if he wants. Just like any other people on here (apart from people who are banned

)

Solo Ace - Wed May 25, 2005 11:44 am
Post subject:

Why did everyone stop posting here?
Come on, this war can't be over just like that!

newb - Wed May 25, 2005 12:48 pm
Post subject:

It was dead, if you didn't notice Solo Ace.

Purge - Wed May 25, 2005 3:22 pm
Post subject:

Confess gave up.

newb - Wed May 25, 2005 3:41 pm
Post subject:

He probably just found out that he isn't an important person within the game, and that he was spending too much time in his crappy server.

Cyan~Fire - Wed May 25, 2005 3:42 pm
Post subject:

Of course Solo notice, as he said himself.

But yeah, let's see some of that hot spamming action!!

newb - Wed May 25, 2005 3:43 pm
Post subject:

Yummy! $

Purge - Wed May 25, 2005 4:16 pm
Post subject:

I didn't say he quit SS... he's still around here somewhere.

Contempt+ - Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:37 pm
Post subject:

Yeah, I see him around every now and then..

It stinks that he gave up. This was a lot of fun..

Purge - Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:41 pm
Post subject:

It doesn't stink that he gave up... Why would you think that?

Contempt+ - Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:17 am
Post subject:

Arguing and winning is a lot of fun.. Especially against those who started it.

Even though, arguing on the internet is like the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still a retard.

newb - Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:15 am
Post subject:

...do you need to quote the text from that picture, and bump 6 topics as well?

Contempt+ - Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:30 am
Post subject:

May 25 wasn't that long ago....

CryonEx - Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:16 am
Post subject:

Confess wrote:

Notice he said >>I need help regaining my rightful ownership of SSR<<.
First off, it wasnt his to begin with. CypherJF Started a little zone to test stuff in which was called SSR Cyphrus about a year and a half ago. Confess offered to host us on his biller and hopefully his server if we got in his good graces. After we got a bad feeling from him and parted ways about a year or so ago we notice all these SSR's popping up. Me and Cypher have tried appealing to Confess to stop using SSR, but to no avail. I think Confess got what he had coming to him.

CypherJF - Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:24 am
Post subject:

I do maintain that I did create an 'SSR' prefix back last summer - it's a shame that the prefix is being used as another acronym than I had sought it to be - and that it's gained a poor reputation. But what cryon says is true. What this means, I'm not sure.

Confess - Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:50 am
Post subject:

Lmao, never once have you come to me asking for me to remove the prefix "SSR", if you have, it most likely wasnt me.

Cryon, i havnt spoken to you since...well years ago.

If you guys wanted to use SSR, you need to continue using it, which you obviously did not do because we are using it

Essentially, if what you are saying is true, since SSZ went down, i cannot use the name, even if its been 10 yrs and they havnt returned? SSW was used by Tweezy before it was pincode, does that mean Pincode has to stop using it?

Muskrat - Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:51 am
Post subject:

Uh oh I see Confess, wonder if hes typing out a novel.

Akk, 1 second too late.

newb - Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:04 pm
Post subject:

LOL.

Anonymous - Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:40 pm
Post subject:

ROFL! he keeps talking in the 1st person like he still owns it! what a loser

Anonymous - Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:51 pm
Post subject:

Someone needs to make SS(add 64 bit encrypted sequence here) and then we wouldn't have this problem!

newb - Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:14 pm
Post subject:

What the hell are you talking about, "My My My"?

Purge - Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:28 pm
Post subject:

He means to encrypt zone prefixes.

newb - Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:34 am
Post subject: