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Solo Ace
Yeah, I'm in touch with reality...we correspond from time to time.
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 Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:20 am Post maybe stupid Post subject: Linux. Yay? |
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Lately I started to see Linux as a "messy" operating system. I don't want to bash on it, but we have all these strange flavours of Linux making it seem like a mess already.
Then, there are no "default" setups. You can pick Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Fluxbox and some others.
No "standard" way of dealing with packages. Everything has dependancies. Updating easily breaks things. Stuff can be a pain to get to work. Why are files always in a different location on each different machine?
I like n*x for the fact I can control it without using a graphical interface.
But why are we so fascinated about software that we make look slightly different than what we're used to but can do less instead of more?
Because it's free? Because we like to be "different" or maybe unique? Because you can customize the setup completely? Because it's a challenge to get it to work? Because it's more "stable"?
Because it's more "secure"?
Microsoft may have too much power, yes. But didn't they get that power by selling their software and make it way too succesful?
Yeah, Windows pisses me off sometimes, but so does Linux.
I see some pros and cons, but I definitely don't see a reason for the overwhelming Linux enthusiasm. In my eyes, Linux is still just an OS for serving and sometimes "play" with. I also use it when there are things to fix (GPartEd or DSL when I need to change partitions or move files).
And don't get me wrong, I use many of the available services for it.
I only see people who'd like to show off being a geek switch to it, because they think it's "cool" to run another OS. Or do they just prefer free software because they can't afford a legal copy of Windows? They shouldn't be using a computer, at all, then.
As I said I like to mess around with Linux sometimes, but don't really feel like using the desktop features, only remotely serving.
So I control the Linux machines here with PuTTY. Dustpup is trying to get me into TextMate for Mac, I probably will use that for web development.
But when it comes to more serious work/productivity on a desktop, Windows is still my primary OS.
Why must we go into Berserk mode when the subject's Linux? Tell me, why do you think it "pwnz", why is it so great and why must the whole world know that you run it? |
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Mine GO BOOM
Hunch Hunch
What What
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:45 am Post maybe stupid Post subject: Re: Linux. Yay? |
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| Solo Ace wrote: | | there are no "default" setups |
The reason there are so many choices of everything under the sun is because none of them are the best. People want something specific, they can fork a project and make what they feel is better. Since it is free, no one is stopping them.
What do you get out of it? Competition in the free market itself. KDE and Gnome are striving to make their project better than each other. Beryl and Compiz are working to make xgl a kickass new environment, each in their own way.
Remember how Internet Explorer blew Netscape out of the water in browsers, then there was no competition. IE became outdated. When Mozila and Opera started to grab, look how much IE improved.
The point is, competition, like in economics, causes growth. If there were only 2 or 3 distros, they wouldn't have such good package managers (or any at all). I used to favor BSD over Linux, but Linux has taken ahold of all this new technology and is pushing it further. BSD just has wrappers to load Linux applications to keep up.
Is Windows better? Is Linux better? It doesn't matter, as long as they are fighting each other, both will be stronger. It took OS X and Linux to get Microsoft to finally release a new operating system. |
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BDwinsAlt
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:50 am Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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I like it because my dad can't get viruses or screw anything up. Any one can pirate a copy of windows. It's just easy to get along with. Who wants to help contribute to Bill? He already has too much money. I like the fact that almost all software you get for Linux is free (OpenOffice) where you have to pirate or pay over a hundred dollars for Microsoft products. There aren't really any 15 day trials.
Because I don't have to download patches, keygens, and cracks, I don't have to worry about viruses anyways. Antiviruses don't always protect you. It's a pain going into safemode only to find that the viruses has attached itself to that as well and you have to download a remover from a 3rd party guy you know nothing about since you can't delete the process.
Linux gives me package errors sometimes, but I can usually fix them.
That's why I like it.
Oh yeah, and so wetzel can't think he knows everything. He tried to put c++ code on the board like this: include "main"#
I laughed but I didn't say anything. Of course he gets to look so smart. He bypasses passwords at school (not hard when there is no admin password if you logon to the computer itself and not the county domain.)
Let's see him try to figure out how to bypass mine.  |
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Maverick
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:04 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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I totally agree with you Solo Ace, it's confusing and messy with all those different Linux distros, package managers, software locations.
Maybe it's healthy competition but it's certainly not helping the end users.
I recently been using Linux more because I'm having my development server running on it (CentOS) and at my work we are having a project environment running on it (Buildix - knoppix). It's hard to get around in Linux and learning the different commands but also dealing with the differences between the both distros.
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Solo Ace
Yeah, I'm in touch with reality...we correspond from time to time.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:49 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| Mine GO BOOM wrote: | | Competition in the free market itself. |
Right, in the free market itself, of course.
It seems logical indeed how people start to derive their own version to define their own theory of "how it's supposed to be done". But this doesn't really make it easier for the people who they're making it for, the enduser.
But, let me rephrase my main question.
Why do people get hard on Linux while it's not really anything special?
What's the enthusiasm for?
Of course people can choose whatever they like. Of course having competition is great. Products don't improve without competition, I know, I know, so having alternatives is a good thing. But why are people trying to show off with it? What's the point?
| BDwinsAlt wrote: | | I like it because my dad can't get viruses or screw anything up. |
I guess you have a point there. I see too many people messing their configurations up and doing things they're not supposed to do. But that's how people like me easily make money. 
| BDwinsAlt wrote: | | Who wants to help contribute to Bill? He already has too much money. |
They wrote the software, they worked for it, so they deserve the money. I think, if you want to use their software, pay for it, and otherwise...
| BDwinsAlt wrote: | | I like the fact that almost all software you get for Linux is free |
indeed, use free alternatives.
I don't like pirated software. But when I install something and have to "crack" it, I'll make sure I don't get the machine infected.
| BDwinsAlt wrote: | Linux gives me package errors sometimes, but I can usually fix them.
That's why I like it. |
So, you like the fact it fails but it allows you to recover it?
"OH I LIKE IT WHEN THE KIDS BREAK THE GLASS, IT'S SO EASY TO FIX! I LOVE IT WHEN THEY PLAY FOOTBALL IN THE FRONT YARD!"
Who the fuck is wetzel? I always include main "$$$".
Right. |
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Solo Ace
Yeah, I'm in touch with reality...we correspond from time to time.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:53 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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So, my conclusion, for now.
There's no point in going crazy over Linux. It's not really anything special, just an alternative software choice.
If you pick a Linux based OS, you should pick the one you like best and deal with the pros and cons it has.
For the crazy file location differences, too bad. |
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BDwinsAlt
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:37 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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No one wants it to break, but if it does it can be fixed.
Wetzel is some fat kid that goes to my school. Good luck including main with the # sign at the end of the line. |
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Mine GO BOOM
Hunch Hunch
What What
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:30 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| Solo Ace wrote: | Why do people get hard on Linux while it's not really anything special?
What's the enthusiasm for? |
Lets narrow this down a bit instead of the whole spectrum. When Windows 95 came out, were you much into computers to see how much that changed systems? Sure, there were other products out there that Win95 copied, but none of them could compete in the gaming world like Windows with Dos did. It was the first OS that normal users could actually use the internet with easily.
When Windows 2000 (or XP) came out, did you notice the excitement of having a server operating system working for the desktop? I loved using NT4, but it was impractical for a home desktop. 2000/XP made it so you could have your computer on for weeks at a time.
How about OS X v10.2? The idea behind your operating system's graphics being all hardware driven was great. Without must cost to your system's speed, you could have pretty effects. This help bring Apple out of its niche market into competing directly with Microsoft for the general user market.
All of those things were big improvements in the home operating system world. Linux was big in the server market for a long time, and still is. The reason for the excitement is that, just like NT4->NT5, is that it is moving into the desktop world. With it comes new innovative ways.
In a short period of time, an operating system designed to run from a console has jumped into the lead as being the most advanced visual interface. It has the ability to absorb anyone's work, be it open source projects or ideas like Expose from OS X, and incorporate it into a single system.
The excitement that users show about Linux is that it is reaching its way to becoming a leader in the desktop market. Every day there is new news about a project that has changed for the better. Take XFree86 fork to Xorg. With it came about many changes that would have been near impossible before. Instead of a monolithic system, it split into modules in which users can contribute more easily to. Xgl was created for hardware acceleration.
Right now, Xorg is being reworked to require no configuration editing, as this is one of the biggest hurdles towards getting users to try Linux. When this is done, when you start X, you won't get ugly screens saying your screen wasn't found because you didn't set your monitor's sync range.
Every six months, Ubuntu released a unified front of the technology push behind Linux. If you want to see an easily list of why Linux is getting geeks and normal users excited, look at the changelogs between the upgrades. A year ago, it took a good bit of changes to get Xgl running. In their latest release, there are simple options in the installed system menu for installing the proprietary binary drivers and a checkbox to enable basic accelerated features. Hopefully by October of this year, a conf-less X will be setup and the few remaining bugs with Compiz/Beryl will have been dealt with.
Saying it isn't special is invalid. It is special. All other choices of an operating system before have been behind the eyes of a company. This is the first time that the operating system is being developed by users, for users. Don't like something, change it. Is there a bug in your favorite program, report it. Do that with Apple or Microsoft, and you might have a slight chance that someone would could do something about it may see your message.
Still don't see? That is fine. I don't really 'get' why people riot so heavily over soccer. I know why they do, but doesn't mean I 'get it'.
I use Windows 2000 on my main machine at home, Gentoo and Ubuntu for headless servers, and Ubuntu with Beryl at work. I'm not a fanatic that is trying to say Windows sucks, and actively promote users to get the best choice for their own needs, be it XP, Vista, OS X, or Linux. |
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SamHughes
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:55 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: Re: Linux. Yay? |
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Let me reply like a jerk for no malicious reason, just to entertain Solo Ace:
| Solo Ace wrote: | | Lately I started to see Linux as a "messy" operating system. I don't want to bash on it, but we have all these strange flavours of Linux making it seem like a mess already. |
Yep, it's very unorganized.
| Solo Ace wrote: | | Then, there are no "default" setups. You can pick Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Fluxbox and some others. |
That's nice, isn't it. It sucks that you can't use dwm on Windows.
| Solo Ace wrote: | | No "standard" way of dealing with packages. Everything has dependancies. Updating easily breaks things. Stuff can be a pain to get to work. Why are files always in a different location on each different machine? |
If you don't like packages, use Windows.
| Solo Ace wrote: | | I like n*x for the fact I can control it without using a graphical interface. |
Is that some kind of fetish of yours?
| Solo Ace wrote: | | But why are we so fascinated about software that we make look slightly different than what we're used to but can do less instead of more? |
What are you talking about? The Linux software does more and works better: at least that which I use. If the software you need isn't as good as what's available on Windows, then why are you using Linux?
| Solo Ace wrote: | Because it's free? Because we like to be "different" or maybe unique? Because you can customize the setup completely? Because it's a challenge to get it to work? Because it's more "stable"?
Because it's more "secure"?
Microsoft may have too much power, yes. But didn't they get that power by selling their software and make it way too succesful? |
What the gently caress are you rambling about? People use Linux because it's the best choice for them. If it's not, they use Max or Windows boxes. Unless they're retarded.
| Solo Ace wrote: | Yeah, Windows pisses me off sometimes, but so does Linux.
I see some pros and cons, but I definitely don't see a reason for the overwhelming Linux enthusiasm. In my eyes, Linux is still just an OS for serving and sometimes "play" with. I also use it when there are things to fix (GPartEd or DSL when I need to change partitions or move files).
And don't get me wrong, I use many of the available services for it.
I only see people who'd like to show off being a geek switch to it, because they think it's "cool" to run another OS. Or do they just prefer free software because they can't afford a legal copy of Windows? |
Probably because it's free, and apt is full of everything you need.
| Solo Ace wrote: | They shouldn't be using a computer, at all, then.
As I said I like to mess around with Linux sometimes, but don't really feel like using the desktop features, only remotely serving.
So I control the Linux machines here with PuTTY. Dustpup is trying to get me into TextMate for Mac, I probably will use that for web development.
But when it comes to more serious work/productivity on a desktop, Windows is still my primary OS. |
So you use Windows because it's better for your purposes. Okay...
| Solo Ace wrote: | | Why must we go into Berserk mode when the subject's Linux? Tell me, why do you think it "pwnz", why is it so great and why must the whole world know that you run it? |
Who's going into Berserk mode when the subject's Linux? Oh wait, retards like you.
Ohhhh schnap1111111
I'm going to have trouble getting a job someday. |
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BDwinsAlt
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:28 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| I do love apt. There are pros and cons to all operating systems. It depends on the person I guess. Most smarter pc users can use something like Linux. For our elderly Windows 2000 works for my mom. She uses QuickBooks for work. I bet I could wine it with a few patches. I see where Solo is coming from (sort of). |
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SamHughes
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:45 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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Anyway, I agree with Solo Ace. You shouldn't have a hard on for Linux. It's not like it's FreeBSD.
But seriously, every time I see some Generic CompSci Student overusing his neato 3D desktop switchamaroo, I pray for the kittens whose souls are being taken away. |
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BDwinsAlt
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| I'm not a big fan of desktop switching, but I love windows going down in flames and snow falling on my desktop every now and then. It looks great with my beach background. |
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Animate Dreams
Gotta buy them all!
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:07 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| I personally consider Windows to be more "stable" than Linux. Mainly because I can break Linux about a thousand ways just doing things I think I'm supposed to, but I've never, ever completely messed up a Windows installation by repair(though my mom did once to my computer while I was at my friend's house). And I've actually read several magazines that have said XP is more stable than Linux, but I don't believe magazines. Now, I know I haven't been using Linux near as long as I've used Windows(17 years, I think), but when it comes down to it, if I'm building a computer and I need stability, I always choose Windows, because it never fails me. |
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BDwinsAlt
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:42 am Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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Then don't come asking us for help when someone infects you with a nasty trojan and you can't remove it. 
J/k <3 |
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Animate Dreams
Gotta buy them all!
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:07 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| Luckily for me, I'm an experienced enough computer user to know people can't just "infect" me with anything, at least not any easier than they could on Linux. I can't believe anyone does believe that, like the people who switched to FireFox because it's more "secure"... they downloaded a bunch of spyware, and then let some FF fanboy tell them IE did it automatically. Man, I still run into people who use their computer every day and still think spyware just "finds" its way onto your computer. |
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BDwinsAlt
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:47 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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I know a site I can go to with IE or FF and after a spyware removal it comes up. Everything is clean until I visit that site's main page. I didn't download anything accept what ever was in the html file.
Spyware is gay (I'm referring to the kind stored in cookies). |
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Doc Flabby
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:09 am Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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My firefox and IE are both fine 
If you gonna surf the spyware type sites.
The only browser worth using is opera. Disable javascript and applets And you are away....
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BDwinsAlt
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:05 am Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| Just use linux. |
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Samapico
No, these DO NOT look like penises, ok?
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:29 am Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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I just set cookies to 'always ask' the first few days... now it's set to disable and I just switch it back to 'ask' whenever I need a new cookie
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Animate Dreams
Gotta buy them all!
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:29 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| Doc Flabby wrote: | My firefox and IE are both fine
If you gonna surf the spyware type sites.
The only browser worth using is opera. Disable javascript and applets And you are away.... |
Opera takes up too many resources for me, at least when I have past 15 tabs open. I actually always browse this website on Opera, and all the websites I plan on keeping up for a while, I open on Maxthon(It's been weeks since I've had less than 30 tabs open on Maxthon), and for everything else(every day browsing that I'll close when I'm done), I use IE. I really can't find a use for FireFox. Why the hell do people use it again? |
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BDwinsAlt
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:35 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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Because IE7 causes connection problems (even with seperate software like STI Office).
They aren't supose to install IE7 at school. Plus there is no point in WINEing IE. |
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Animate Dreams
Gotta buy them all!
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:37 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| Why not WINE IE? It's the last lightweight browser of any decency. FireFox is this massive giant resource whore. Opera is better, but still nowhere like IE. |
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BDwinsAlt
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:35 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| I'm sure you can spare a few megs of ram for a quick web-browsing. I tried Opera... It was better than IE but felt the same as FF to me. |
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Cyan~Fire
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 12:58 am Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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IE uses plenty of resources for me. What little difference there is is most likely due to Windows "hiding" some of the shared resources that IE is using.
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Animate Dreams
Gotta buy them all!
(Consumer whore)
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:56 pm Post maybe stupid Post subject: |
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| Cyan, I'm not just going by the numbers in process manager. IE never lags my computer at all, and FF does with just a few tabs. FF has been known to take over 150 mb, though, going by the numbers, and IE has never even hit half that. Surely you wouldn't try to deny that FF, with all its extra features(and way more if you use any extensions, which I never would) wouldn't take any more memory than IE which does little more than display a webpage? |
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Linux in School? 
