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[CypherJF]

This is an interesting article, and also argues with it that Java is not 'slow', it is 'powerful', etc. etc. (a good language ).


http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/03/22/204244

Have fun.
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Performance is often the art of cheating carefully. - James Gosling

[Mine GO BOOM]

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[Dr Brain]

Most people don't understand Java. Most people don't understand multivariable calculus either. People love to use it for all the wrong problems and scream bloody murder when it doesn't work perfectly.

Java will never be as fast as C++. The beginner sees this and interprets it as Java being slow. After that, the beginner will never again seriously use Java.

Java makes it easy to make good designs. C makes it easy to make fast programs. When Java code is slow, the language is blamed. When C++ code is impossible to upgrade, the programmer is blamed, not the language as it should be.

Everyone talks about how slow Java is, how C is a million times faster, and you should always use the fastest language. Yet, assembly is always just as fast as C, and it's never seriously used. You should always use the fastest language?

With JIT JVMs, the speed issue (barring Swing) virtually disappears.

Engineering is all about picking the right tool for the job and having lots of tools to choose from. Most software engineers do not seem to understand this.

Java is a superb language for learning programming. It is a wonderful language for making simple GUIs and quick programs. It has its flaws, and I'm willing to discuss them with anyone who's willing to leave behind the prejudices against Java they've acquired.
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Smong> so long as 99% deaths feel lame it will always be hyperspace to me

[Cyan~Fire]

I think I said in some other thread here that it's not just the inefficiency, it's the syntax/restrictions of the language itself.

Please excuse me if I get some of my arguments wrong, it's been over a year since I learned Java just to teach a programming-inept friend, and I haven't used it since.

I dislike:

• not being able to parse an array like I can in C++.
  
• not being able to compare instances (that is, the pointers to them) of classes in a switch statement or even just an if statement.
  
• having to implement a class just to get some kind of callback (for ActionListener or the like) instead of just making a stupid function.
  
• having to type "new" every time I want to make a stupid class.
  
• not having readily available unsigned types.
  
• not being able to easily access the bits in a variable.
  
• not being able to take a file and read it into a struct/structs in one, nice operation.
  
• the idea of making a whole new copy of a string to change one character
  
• not having a good string parser available like sscanf(). (At least, I don't remember one. Please tell me if there is one.
  
• having the compiler decide if I want a parameter to be by value or by reference.

In short: I dislike having the compiler tell me how to design my program. C++ offers far more flexibility.

And on the issue of portability, I've never programmed myself with wxWidgets, but from some source code I saw it looks reasonably cool. (The program compiled out-of-the-box on Win and Mac.)
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[Dr Brain]

[Cyan~Fire]

Parsing arrays: (actually, this contains a few of Java's incapabilities)

Code: Show/Hide    unsigned int n_trigs;    Trigger *t;    bool good = (ret == ERR_none);    if (good)    {       fread(&n_trigs, sizeof(long), 1, dcin);       triggers.allocate(n_trigs, true); //probably can't pre-allocate space like that in Java       t = triggers.first();    }    if (n_trigs && good)    {       i = n_trigs;       while (i-- && good)          good = t++->read(dcin); //definitely not       if (good && !feof(dcin))       {          t_order.allocate(n_trigs, true);          fread(t_order.first(), sizeof(long), n_trigs, dcin); //read the whole array at once? nope.          if (*t_order.first() > n_trigs)             ret = ERR_trig;       }       else          ret = ERR_trig;    }

I know the code is messy, but it's nowhere near as messy as the file format it's reading.

Comparing pointers: maybe that's one of the things that I've forgotten. Can you do it in a switch?

Need to know how to use function pointers? Not if you're just using someone else's callback mechanism (which you essentially are in Java, anyway). And the excuse that since it's hard, it shouldn't be available is bunk.

Making an instantiation of a class? I type

Code: Show/Hide extern Scenario scen;

once and

Code: Show/Hide Scenario scen;

later, and woah! The same class is even available by all my files now!

About bits, I mean that last time I checked you can't do this:

Code: Show/Hide union weaponInfo {    struct    {       Uint16 type         : 5;   // enum Projectile_Types       Uint16 level      : 2;   // Only for bombs/bullets       Uint16 shrapBounce   : 1;   // Bouncing shrapnel?       Uint16 shrapLevel   : 2;   // Shrapnel level 0..3       Uint16 shrapCount   : 5;   // 0-31       Uint16 fireType      : 1;   // Bombs -> Mines, Bullets -> Multifire    };    Uint16 n; };

My point about Strings is that I have no clue why they're immutable. It seems rather silly.

Formatted input: Eh, but probably not a way I like better than sscanf(). If it's something like C++ iostream insertion/extraction, I won't like it.

Function parameters: When I learned Java, I'm sure the integral types were by value. Is that not the case anymore?

[Dr Brain]

[Mammal]

Though you should take my word as a grain of salt, due to the fact I don't require Java for anything greatly useful to myself (i.e. I'm not actively trying to revamp TW-Core, or anything similarly, or outwardly useful), and I am quite the novice at it. Yet I find C++, while OS based, to be the leader of the pack in programming.

The similarities of C++ and Java are staggering, and one person moving from one another can be easily done. You'll understand all the concepts of Java when moving to CSS, and vice versa. Things like arrays are nothing new, and the syntax is hardly different.

But, the usability of a script on a PC/Laptop is near-0, depending on what you do of course. A simple 'executable', is quite a difference when having to get out a compiler, and being java compatible, something not featured in WinXP. (Greatly inhibited my work on Java, no more cmd for javac).

For cell phones, however, I think that Java could be very well applied, the size of a script is next to nil, and the compiler requires nothing else except perhaps packaged files, which could be apart of the phones internal memory anywho.

Still, calling Java pro leaves me wondering...why is it pro?


No flames. I'm t3h noob.

[Bak]

you can use the primative wrapper classes (Integer, Short, Character, ect.) if you want to pass by reference... or the primiatives if you want to pass by value.

If you want a modifiable string then use a character array. You can print it out to a BufferedWriter (like System.out) using a print or println method... just list Strings.

[Cyan~Fire]

[Dr Brain]

[50% Packetloss]

Well I didn't read everything but I would have to say that Java is fairly close in speed to C. Java programs are partly compiled and when they are run the Java Virtual Machine completes the compile and links it (in chunks of code at a time). So Java is a little slower at startup but was designed to replace C++ so it has many of its features. No language is perfect and each has its ups and downs, Java is higher level language than C and C++, so you are speaking more english and less computer. Thus the programmer loses a feel for what the computer is actually doing, this goes for all Object Oriented programming. Personally I prefer procedural languages. I believe with Java you also lose a lot of control, such as the ability to use ASM in sections of code and control registers/stack/heap/ect directly. But then again, Java has portability and can be tuned to be used with any instruction set. Garbage Collection is nice if you need something to hold your hand because you can't remember to deallocate shit.

[Cyan~Fire]

Pre-allocate: It allocates the space for a dynamic array of objects (and optionally constructs them) so that you don't waste CPU time having the class continuously expand itself if you're copying a lot of items.

Parsing an array: Initialize a pointer to the first member of an array, and then do an operation and increment the pointer until you reach the end. Saves some messy indexing and the like.

Indeed I agree with 50% about security. If you can't handle sizeof(), you can't handle programming.

[Dr Brain]

[CypherJF]

From: Steven Metsker author of Design Patterns Java Workbook (pg 390)

[Dr Brain]

No language can prevent all errors, but they can relieve pressure on the programmer. You don't have to always think about what sort of input a hacker might try to shove down your throat.

I don't think immutability hinders learning the language. I've never seen anyone complain about integers being passed by value (and thus immutable) hindering their learning. Strings are more like the primitives than any other class.

[CypherJF]

I don't mind the immutability of the object; and there must be a "good" reason, hence they implemented into the language this way - design wise.

[Cyan~Fire]

Ahh. I guess I was wrong about vectors. As I said before, I wasn't sure about that point. And yes, with computers these days, it doesn't take any noticeable amount of time to expand quite a few times, but I especially need pre-allocation since I copy memory directly.

[Dr Brain]

Well, I cleared up a few of your misunderstandings, so I think it was a worthwhile discussion.

<shakes cyan's hand>

[Bak]

[Dr Brain]

Except that in all my time programming in Java, I've never had the need to box ints into Integers for the reason of passing by reference.

Your example, bak, while legal Java, is convoluted.

int sqrt(int num) would be how it should be declared.

[Bak]

of course... but if one were to want to pass a primative by reference, that's how you would do it.

[Cyan~Fire]

[Cerium]

For the record...

Everything in java is passed by value, nothing is passed by reference.

Objects are essentially pointers. When you pass an object to a function, youre passing the reference to that object by value.

---

Also, for you hardcore programmers, you can also use JNI (or whatever its called) to embed C code into your java app. Hell half of the java classes themselves do this. Take a look at the Thread class... most of the calls are native code. I wonder if you could embed ASM code into the C code then embed that into Java code.... hrmmm....



I only have 4 real problems with Java...
1) Lack of _real_ pointers.
2) Lack of structs (as cyan pointed out)
3) Lack of unsigned data types.
4) No operator overloading.

Other than that, its been good to me. Dumbass protections like automagic garbage collection and array bounds checking are also nice for RAD.

[CypherJF]

They, Java language designers, decided for no signed data structures because they believe there is no need for it. I forget where I read the interview, but its out on the internet somewhere.

Heres something I just googled:
http://java.sun.com/javaone/fireside_chat1.html