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CypherJF I gargle nitroglycerin
Gender: Joined: Aug 14 2003 Posts: 2582 Location: USA Offline
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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The server can only inturpret what the client sends it... _________________ Performance is often the art of cheating carefully. - James Gosling
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Smong Server Help Squatter
Joined: 1043048991 Posts: 0x91E Offline
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Someone should write some code for asss that checks prize distribution with say a 5% tolerance. I would do it but don't know how to write such a 'compare by percentage' routine.
Also with asss checking for things like people firing bouncing bullets when bouncingbullets=0 in the prizeweight, that won't really work anymore. Because anyone using asss will likely want to use some of it's features like prizing players automatically. There's no hooks for another module to detect that.
Gravitron wrote: | However, in VIE I could've sworn that prizes and shrapnels were synched, for the most part.
Like, if you pick cloak, and the other guy is also a cloaker, he also got cloak. | Team shared prizes shouldn't be modified by the server. Also I'm pretty sure shrapnel is synced in cont. If you set bomb thrust to 0, then use a safe zone and portal to get stationary somewhere and fire at a wall, all the shrap will come out at the same angle.
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Mr Ekted Movie Geek
Gender: Joined: Feb 09 2004 Posts: 1379 Offline
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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If someone is going to cheat well, they will tweak things that can't be tracked within statistical norms. It's not worth it IMO. _________________ 4,691 irradiated haggis!
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Bak ?ls -s 0 in
Age:25 Gender: Joined: Jun 11 2004 Posts: 1826 Location: USA Offline
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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chance of greening prox = 0.001%
player plays for 30 minutes picks up 999 prizes then gets prox.
his history of greening prox = 0.1%, which clearly shows he is cheating since his prox probability is 10000% over what it should be... and 10000% is above our 5% limit _________________ SubSpace Discretion: A Third Generation SubSpace Client
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Gravitron VIE Vet
Age:41 Gender: Joined: Aug 02 2002 Posts: 993 Location: Israel Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Looking at duels in SVS, shrapnel is largely unsynched in continuum.
Then again, it could be lag.
Bah.
And server can force you to download 1.35, like it can force you to d/l any client in the name of a so called update.
Like it can force you to d/l continuum.
Anyway, attached file from sage.
Client&Server upgrade to 1.35.zip - 224.59 KB
File downloaded or viewed 20 time(s)
Last edited by Gravitron on Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Bak ?ls -s 0 in
Age:25 Gender: Joined: Jun 11 2004 Posts: 1826 Location: USA Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:49 am Post subject: |
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Gravitron wrote: | it can force you to d/l any client |
Nope, server has no way to know what client I'm using.
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CypherJF I gargle nitroglycerin
Gender: Joined: Aug 14 2003 Posts: 2582 Location: USA Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:53 am Post subject: |
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client tells the server which version it is using, if it mismatches it says you need to download it but.. it never forces it...
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Cerium Server Help Squatter
Age:41 Gender: Joined: Mar 05 2005 Posts: 807 Location: I will stab you. Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:44 am Post subject: |
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damnit... I needd a delete button for when I misread something.
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Mine GO BOOM Hunch Hunch What What
Age:40 Gender: Joined: Aug 01 2002 Posts: 3614 Location: Las Vegas Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Gravitron wrote: | continuum protocol was broken and people are already doing that |
The protocol is pretty much open to the public. Now, if you mean the encryption, I have not seen any evidence of this at all.
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Mr Ekted Movie Geek
Gender: Joined: Feb 09 2004 Posts: 1379 Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Gravitron wrote: | Looking at duels in SVS, shrapnel is largely unsynched in continuum. |
In VIE and Cont both. They use identical physics. All clients have their own version of reality. The point at which a bomb explodes for each client is based on precisely when each bomb enters prox distance for any ship and if that bomb is moving closer to or farther from its "locked" ship. With all the latencies of player packets, this going to be different for each client. On various clients, the bomb may explode for different ships, early or late, or not at all. And likewise, the shrap from the bomb will be in different locations. Anything bouncing around that is off by even a pixel on 2 different screens can end up 1000's of pixels apart. Ships explode for no reason to you, etc.
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Gravitron VIE Vet
Age:41 Gender: Joined: Aug 02 2002 Posts: 993 Location: Israel Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:27 am Post subject: |
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My problem wasn't ships exploding around me, but ships around me refusing to explode.
Enter the Dragon, err, Leviathan...
Well, during VIE shrapnel always seemed to work quite fine to me.
Also, in continuum the prox triggers seem to malefunction quite frequently and many oddities occured whereas they should not had, compared to past VIE experience.
Doesn't the server do more than just receive a version number?
I mean bak, are you saying that Jeff is korean grade quality?
Server also look at checksum and CRC I believe.
Infantry's server, at the least, seemed very hard to fool with faked files.
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Gravitron VIE Vet
Age:41 Gender: Joined: Aug 02 2002 Posts: 993 Location: Israel Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Mine GO BOOM wrote: | [..]
The protocol is pretty much open to the public. Now, if you mean the encryption, I have not seen any evidence of this at all. |
That's just the point, if someone went onto the trouble of doing it, would he use obvious cheats? of course not.
So, if we don't know about it, it doesn't *hurt* us and so - we really don't *care*.
And if it is in public, or seen in public, its bust down is imminent.
As for deterrance, zero tolerance policy with severe penalty.
Now that people can't just so as easily get around bans, or net bans for that matter, they won't be as quick to toss their carrier just to see if they can cheat.
The premise of a swift and harsh punishment will overcome the temptation.
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Mr Ekted Movie Geek
Gender: Joined: Feb 09 2004 Posts: 1379 Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Gravitron wrote: | Well, during VIE shrapnel always seemed to work quite fine to me.
Also, in continuum the prox triggers seem to malefunction quite frequently and many oddities occured whereas they should not had, compared to past VIE experience. |
I agree with you. There are physics bugs in Cont, but the intention is that they are exact. Initially, I think the motivation was to allow both clients so that acceptance was easier. Now it seems pointless to try to be compatible at all. If we've got all the Cont source, we should be adding whatever features would be useful to expand the game and modifying the protocol to match it.
Gravitron wrote: | Doesn't the server do more than just receive a version number?
Server also look at checksum and CRC I believe. |
The server only knows what the client tells it. Any fake client (or modified client) can also tell the server what it wants to hear. This what bots do; they pretend to be VIE 1.34.
The server requires the client to checksum the code, the map, and the arena settings every two minutes. The checksum algorithms use a "key" from the server so that a potentially fake client cannot simply pre-calculate what the checksums will be; they must calculate them on demand. This prevents modifying those areas of memory while the client is running, but does nothing to protect the client from changes to other areas (things that are unique to each client), which is why VIE client was so vulnerable to Twister. Cont makes some attempt to protect other sensitive data, but it's virtually impossible to protect yourself completely from a seriously motivated hacker.
The changes to the protocol for Cont are pretty much limited to identity, encrpytion, and LVZ stuff. Underneath all that, the packets look the same.
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Gravitron VIE Vet
Age:41 Gender: Joined: Aug 02 2002 Posts: 993 Location: Israel Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Well, and this is just being devil's advocate, if we have such a serious hacker, who would go the lengths to be able to create a cheat, and one that will be so subtle it will be virtually undetected, and none but him even know of this...hell, let the kid enjoy the prize of his hard work.
If winning the game means so much to him, let him have it, I pitty him IRL must have one hell lousy life.
And still, he would lose to upper-tier zero latency duelers, or those who somehow got such huge spikes/lag without being put to spec that they simply *devour* with their lag whatever packets you throw on them and ignore damage.
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Cyan~Fire I'll count you!
Age:36 Gender: Joined: Jul 14 2003 Posts: 4608 Location: A Dream Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Here are the two options.
- A secure encryption and secure code so only the most devoted hacker can make the most simple hacks. That is, large effort for very little gain.
- An insecure encryption with insecure code so that newbs like me and Smong can tear apart Continuum like we are Subspace. We can modify our clients so that they perfectly emulate an officially released client, and yet give us a slight edge whenever possible. When we really want it, we decide which green we get. When a bullet or bomb would deliver a glancing hit, our clients detect that and ignore the packet. That is, we never get hit unless it is a very direct hit, and not even then if we really don't want to get hit. "Sorry, dial-up. :-S"
Ekted wrote: | Cont makes some attempt to protect other sensitive data |
Yeah. How is it that I can attach VC++6 to subspace.bin and still chat and read the memory, but the instant I try with Continuum it exits? _________________ This help is informational only. No representation is made or warranty given as to its content. User assumes all risk of use. Cyan~Fire assumes no responsibility for any loss or delay resulting from such use.
Wise men STILL seek Him.
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Bak ?ls -s 0 in
Age:25 Gender: Joined: Jun 11 2004 Posts: 1826 Location: USA Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | are you saying that Jeff is korean grade quality |
what's that supposed to mean?
--
It's not a big deal if one guy cheats... but what If he realeases the cheat to the public, and let them tweak how much they cheat... every time someone lags you'll suspect he's a cheater because it would be so rampent.
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Cyan~Fire I'll count you!
Age:36 Gender: Joined: Jul 14 2003 Posts: 4608 Location: A Dream Offline
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Korean? Crappy? Sub-human? Come on, Bak, we all know this deep inside. The Koreans are the cause of all our problems!
No dogs or koreans allowed to program SubSpace.
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Gravitron VIE Vet
Age:41 Gender: Joined: Aug 02 2002 Posts: 993 Location: Israel Offline
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Everytime someone lags it's already suspecion of cheating, because lagging is the best cheat of all.
Get a good routing to the server, have 0-10ms, run bittorent for a nice 100-200ms spikes, and voila, you have achived godmode.
And if a cheat will be in public, then it'll be whoopassed.
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i88gerbils Oldbie Server Help
Gender: Joined: Dec 13 2002 Posts: 423 Location: OH Offline
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Couldn't you have a command that turned on a "position watch" or something that might compare movement speeds for one player if things were suspicious? _________________ Oldbie Server Help
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Bak ?ls -s 0 in
Age:25 Gender: Joined: Jun 11 2004 Posts: 1826 Location: USA Offline
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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sure, I made a ASSS modules that does that.
But of course if they use something like speedhack, the timestamps in the packets will be off too so everything will look legal.
You could (Like the module does) use server timestamps too... and this detected speedhack correctly... but there are other issues (warping, getting bricked, portals, rockets, attaching, or even large differences between packet arrival time) which have to be accounted for.
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Gravitron VIE Vet
Age:41 Gender: Joined: Aug 02 2002 Posts: 993 Location: Israel Offline
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well, how about have certain "harmless" parts of the client in public.
So people can contribute CVS.
While the rest of the client run something like self-designed hackshield to have additional assistance to prevent any cheating.
As for time stamps/speedhack, I know Jeff put measures in place (server side I believe?) to detect and ban them.
Maybe that's what the bios clocking/packet timer detection was for.
Oh and smong, you don't need to be at full stop, you can be moving as well, it has nothing to do with it.
Randomized or 360" shrapnel is a setting, nothing to do with synchronization.
What I'm talking about is people seeing shrapnel same as you do.
I often see duels where people ignore shrapnels bouncing at them.
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CypherJF I gargle nitroglycerin
Gender: Joined: Aug 14 2003 Posts: 2582 Location: USA Offline
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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I know Jeff implemented auto-banning in infantry etc etc to offset these types of cheats;however, this got Sony into trouble because people were paying to play and by being falsely banned for 24hrs means that customer paying for service they weren't able to use (or osmething like that) and so I think they reverted it out... (i could be wrong)
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Smong Server Help Squatter
Joined: 1043048991 Posts: 0x91E Offline
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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@Gravitron
I was just saying that when shrapnel is set to random, then there is actually some kind of psuedo random thing going on (which can be proved by firing two bombs from the same location at a wall).
This means shrap angles should be synced on all clients. But would only really work if the bomb exploded when it hit a wall. As Mr Ekted says all players have a slightly different version of reality, so a bomb exploding by hitting a ship might mean the source of the shrapnel is off by a few pixels.
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Mr Ekted Movie Geek
Gender: Joined: Feb 09 2004 Posts: 1379 Offline
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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It might even be that random shrap is different on every client! Although it would be possible to have it be random but the same on all clients by using the bomb's original timestamp as the key. Still, as Cypher said, they would still be off many pixels, and because of bouncing and ends of walls, could end up in totally different places.
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Smong Server Help Squatter
Joined: 1043048991 Posts: 0x91E Offline
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Cypher said that? I thought you did. Mr Ekted wrote: | Anything bouncing around that is off by even a pixel on 2 different screens can end up 1000's of pixels apart. Ships explode for no reason to you, etc. |
I'm sure the key to the rng is the x/y pos (or at least contains that), because of the firing two bombs from the same location thing.
Edit:
syncedshrap.png - 13.76 KB
File downloaded or viewed 24 time(s)
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