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Server Help | ASSS Wiki (0) | Shanky.com
LVZ LVL RGN TILESET editor BETA! All in one!!!
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ZiGNoTZaG
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

30 megs is a drop in the bucket. if its functional and fast, i really dont care how much ram it uses. and niether would anyone else that is actually going to use it as intended.

suppose i should point out that i had my proggy suckin up about 300 megs at one point. $$

down to about 60 now sa_tongue.gif

btw....what do you mean when you say the prgram will run out of ram with "alot" of large images. do you mean the program will OutofHuff when you try to display an ini with alot of images that will draw on the screen at once, or it will when you intialy try to load them? and what is alot? and how large is large? and how many is too many? hehe.

i dont expect ya to know all that. but if ya do...im curious.
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CypherJF
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

60 MB VB app? Oy...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I don't see where you're quoting that "alot" from but most of your answers depend on the system you're running the program on.

I haven't had any problems with memory, but 2dragons pointed out that grav bomber from tw can result in an out of memory error. If you open the java console it'll say "java.lang.outofmemory exception" or something like that. It'll say it when it initially loads the images, shouldnt cause problems after you've loaded them. a 1024 x 1024 image takes up close to 4 megs in memory... so if you have 20 images that are 2048x2048 you have close to 320 megs...

Eventually there will be a low memory mode where you can load these types of lvz, but it'll only load a scaled down portion into memory and scale it when it draws, so the drawing won't look like original quality, but this isn't an issue when you're placing lvz, as long as you can tell what it is.
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Mr Ekted
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I don't know how the Java stuff works, but in Win32 you can keep images as DIB's in memory. That is, you could store them as 8-bit images (1/4 the space) mapped to maybe a web palette if they are larger than 1024x1024. Blit time is a little more CPU intensive, but it's a nice speed/size tradeoff.
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i88gerbils
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Should a zoomed out mode use the tiles at all? Though transitioning back to tile mode may take awhile? I ask because I'm not sure if this is a valid solution.
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ZiGNoTZaG
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

my bad on the alot..."many"

and ya, thats alot of large images.

my evo zone which is 7 megs compresses into lvz, takes up about 60 megs when ya load it in my ed. thats using picControls(really mem hogs, need to be eliminated and use DIBs like ekted metions,which piccontrols are really but with excess baggage for each one), and then DD to all the rest. my editor works by holdign all the images in ram and then drawing them all to backbuffers in ram before the draw to screen, essentaily its tripple back buffered. hehe.

one could have a constantly smooth frame rate at all zooms if you either

backbuffer the entire Map, Ouch....could you even?

Or prebackbuffer beyond the edge of the screen, then you would just get a tick when you cross the boundary into a new "region"

the only way ssme performs this feat im willing ta bet is when you reach a certain point of zoom, it changes from a 16x16 tile drawing....to a line drawing. thats how it remains fast. i assume. icon_smile.gif

ie its drawing 20 lines, not 200 tiles

the tiles would be your biggest hang up, and i would worry about simplifying the lvz, those will much more far between then the tiles, and shouldnt hamper the perforamce of zoom too much, depending on the map(lvz) of course. at least thats my plan. hehe icon_smile.gif
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Mr Ekted
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

i88gerbils wrote:
Should a zoomed out mode use the tiles at all? Though transitioning back to tile mode may take awhile? I ask because I'm not sure if this is a valid solution.


At 1:4 zoom, I would use pre-shrunk tilesets for very fast blitting. At 1:16 (1 tile = 1 pixel) and smaller, you might want to create a pre-rasterized 1024x1024 image of the map one time and blit it as a single image. Most updates (draws) nothing changes, so this works extremely well. Only if an edit occurs do you need to re-generate the image.

As for 1:8+ colors, I would allow for 3 modes: all tiles are a single color (utilitarian), tiles are color-coded based on function (easier to find doors, etc), tiles are drawn using an average color of the original tile's pixels (let's you see a more realistic image).
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i88gerbils
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Since i'm not a programmer I'd always thought that at 1:16 I'd send in a couple of shorts and a bool for 1024^2 times, then print whatever is in the viewable area. Then switch back to a more hefty struct of arrays for anything lower. Though I know nothing about graphics so it may very well be faster to go to a bitmap then print out graphics using your own method.

Now you get to laugh at me (except for a certain someone I woke up).
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ZiGNoTZaG
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Mr Ekted wrote:
[..]



At 1:4 zoom, I would use pre-shrunk tilesets for very fast blitting. At 1:16 (1 tile = 1 pixel) and smaller, you might want to create a pre-rasterized 1024x1024 image of the map one time and blit it as a single image. Most updates (draws) nothing changes, so this works extremely well. Only if an edit occurs do you need to re-generate the image.

As for 1:8+ colors, I would allow for 3 modes: all tiles are a single color (utilitarian), tiles are color-coded based on function (easier to find doors, etc), tiles are drawn using an average color of the original tile's pixels (let's you see a more realistic image).


my radar uses the large 1024x1024 backbuffer. for my zooming i was thinking i would change from drawing actual tiles, to drawing sections of that image, stretched possibly. would have to see how accurate that stretch can be when dealign with simple line drwaings. but that would be nice and fast. specialy since DD can use your video cards On board DirectX stretching stuff. instead of using sysram, and cpu intesivly.

bak, what method do you use for the radar?

i havent scoped yer program yet, got enough problems with my own hehe.

i like that displaying tiles by an average of the orig color idea icon_smile.gif
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2dragons
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

the radar window simply iterates through the viewable radar area and draws what it sees from an array containing the tiling of the map
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elementalfury01
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

how do you use it? to me it opened as an .RAR file?
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i88gerbils
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

you can run it either by associating .jar files with javaw. Or you can run it from the command line javaw -jar CLIT.jar

You need JAVA
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Recommendation, hopefully this wasnt suggested yet; next to the coord have the LETTER# coord as well icon_smile.gif

very nice work guys!
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Grelminar
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

It's on topic here, so I thought I should say something about asss region support.

First, the current region stuff sort of sucks. I'd like to make something better, but I'd like some input on what sorts of regions people want to make, and what they want to use them for. The two things I need to decide are an in-memory representation (currently this is a list of rectangles), and an on-disk representation (currently a coded list of rectangles in an .rgn file). Whether I end up moving away from rect lists or not, I'd like to embed the region data in the .lvl file itself. So, um, don't spend so much time on .rgn file support, or at least if you do, make suggestions about how I can improve the system.

Oh, and thanks for creating this. SS/Cont is long overdue for some better tools for creating zones. With a little more work, we can even do cool stuff like embedding triggered code snippets in maps, etc.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

make sure any changes are backwards compatable grel, so that you can still use the RGN's even though it can also be embedded in the lvl... you already have a header, so different versions shouldn't be a big deal

as for .rar files it's a type of compressed file like .zip is. You can use a program called winrar to open those files, google it and it's free to evaluate.
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Dr Brain
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I created a region with 156 rectangles in it. This seems rather inefficient to me.

I've already stated that I would like some kind of bitmap lookup. A single file to map the various bitmap file's contents to regions.

For example:

region=noflags
bitmap=bitmap1.bmp
red=255
green=255
blue=255

region=noanti
bitmap=bitmap1.bmp
red=255
green=0
blue=0

region=interdict
bitmap=bitmap2.bmp
red=0
green=0
blue=255

region=interdictexit
bitmap=bitmap2.bmp
red=0
green=255
blue=0
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Mine GO BOOM
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Setup mirror at editor.minegoboom.com and got Bak access to change mirror at anytime. Its his choice if he wishes to continue using it for hosting.
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2dragons
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

At some point when I get some time I intend on making our editor available by Java web start for those who are not familiar with java setup stuff. This requires some conversion in the code and such and I have my own goals on what needs done before I get to that. But soon....
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CypherJF
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

If you use the BMP, it only allows 1-layer essentially so the region's couldn't overlap, right? :/
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Dr Brain
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Which is why, in my example, I made sure that I demo'ed how multiple bmps would work. Note the bitmap= lines.
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CypherJF
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Recommendation: save me from having to redownload the 2 megs each time the actual java portion has been updated, could you make a "slimed" down distro pleassse icon_smile.gif
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Damn 56kers these days. sa_tongue.gif
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CypherJF
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

heh there isn't anything I can do about it... the providers don't come out here..
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I had that problem for a while too, create a website which allows the people from your town to show their support and explain them how much your town wants and needs broadband internet access, they'll connect you. icon_razz.gif
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

People around here mostly do have the ability, but 1.) they can't afford it 2.) no technology, etc. etc.
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