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Smong
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:44 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

A chunked packet is where there is too much data to fit into one packet. A reliable stack is needed because UDP is unreliable, when you receive a packet tagged as reliable you must send an acknowledgement to the server. This 'tag' contains certain info that means you must acknowledge packets in a certain order and discard others.

Even if you don't complete your desired project, perhaps you could turn it into a nice map + lvz editor?
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nintendo64
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:55 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

That's a nice emoticon, i think i will save it to use it sometime later icon_smile.gif

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Fuzzjdc
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:54 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

has anyone thought to examine the fix.dll with the subgame2.exe? it might be interesting...
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Dr Brain
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:55 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Mine GO BOOM wrote:
There is only one emoticon in which can express what I feel when I'm reading this thread:



Almost as good as that Thread Reanimator one. Keep 'em coming. icon_wink.gif
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Qndre
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:01 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Smong wrote:
A chunked packet is where there is too much data to fit into one packet. A reliable stack is needed because UDP is unreliable, when you receive a packet tagged as reliable you must send an acknowledgement to the server. This 'tag' contains certain info that means you must acknowledge packets in a certain order and discard others.

Even if you don't complete your desired project, perhaps you could turn it into a nice map + lvz editor?

Maybe I can create a MAP- and LVZ-software which can download the MAP and LVZ from an existing zone and safe it to the harddisk (and perhaps upload the files after modifiing if you have SysOP rights).
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Illetni
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:21 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

ya know the lvz file format??
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Qndre
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:25 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Illetni wrote:
ya know the lvz file format??

No but I've downloaded a library which can decode the data on it. The file format which makes me crazy is the LVL format. How to decode it to an image file (like BMP is)...
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D1st0rt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:44 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=22316&package_id=55692

this has all kindsa crap like packets, encryption, protocol, in c++ files
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Qndre
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:41 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Thank you very much, distort. That's the stuff I needed. Is the LVL-decoding included?
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Mine GO BOOM
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:50 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

A simple search of "lvl" on the forums resulted with the thread in which I explain LVL structures in great detail.
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Qndre
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:18 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Thanks, MGB. But it looks quite difficult. There is no easier way to decode it to an image??
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Qndre
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:38 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

YES!! I found out (with the help of ExplodyThingy's document) how to build a login sequence for the Continuum client and disable encryption in it.
Code: Show/Hide

~~~ CTM login sequence without encryption ~~~
            (C) by Qndre
            Thanks to ExplodyThingy


C -> S   00 01 00 00 00 00 VV VV

S -> C   00 05 TT TT TT TT

C -> S   00 06 00 00 00 00 TT TT TT TT

S -> C   00 02 KK KK

C -> S   00 09 NN UU UU UU UU UU UU UU UU UU
               UU UU UU UU UU UU UU UU UU UU
               UU UU UU UU UU UU UU UU UU UU
               UU UU UU YY YY YY YY YY YY YY
               YY YY YY YY YY YY YY YY YY YY
               YY YY YY YY YY YY YY YY YY YY
               YY YY YY YY YY RR RR RR RR 00
               00 01 00 00 VV VV 04 44 05 55
               00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
               00 00 00

S -> C   00 06 PP PP PP PP TT TT TT TT 00 0E LL ... 00 03 II XX ...



VV      = Version (0x24 = PriitK / 0x86 = VIE)
TT      = Timestamp
KK      = Encryption-Key (0x00 because first Core-Packet disabled it)
PP      = Ping
LL      = Level-File
II      = ID
XX      = Anything (not known)
NN      = New User (00 = Not-New; 01 = New)
UU      = Username
YY      = Userkey
RR      = Random
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50% Packetloss
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:18 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Once you convince the server that you logged in on a conti client, can you then start using SS encryption to send all the other packets? Just from what I have read in merv's code, the bot seems to just tell the server its location and then its able to jump there. I have to pick up a book on winsock to understand this stuff, but it seems to me that once you can login as a contiuum client, then you could easily cheat. Maybe it isnt so wise to post your findings? Just email minegoboom about what you find?
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nintendo64
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:33 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Qndre, what you say actually doesn't works on ForceContinuumOnly Zones, i know this, but i decided to try.

00 01 Encryption Request Packet with the Continuum Encryption version 11 (VIE is 1)
I did the 00 01 00 00 00 00 11 00
I got a reply of 00 10 Packet an ACK used to start the Encryption Sequence which i cannot start with the VIE Encr scheme i got on my bot.

Then i tried a
00 01 Encryption Request Packet with the SubSpace Encryption Version 01 (CTM is 11)

i did 00 01 00 00 00 00 01 00
i didn't get any reply, the Subgame let my SS Bot on hold.

btw 0x24 is 36 you should use 0x27 which is 39 and 0x86 is 134.

Also do a *einfo on the application you did the Login session, you won't see a CTM if you logged in with a Sysop Password, it will say VIE 0.36 on your case because you used 0x24, if you had used 0x86 it'll say 1.34.

A note here Sysop can enter with a SubSpace Client to force only Continuum zones.

Well good luck trying to figure out a Continuum Session.

-nintendo64
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ExplodyThingy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:02 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Just a note, Im glad I can help and all, but that document on the ss protocol (the second one I gave you) was written by catid. Check the last line of the file. The other document, the protocol list (the first one I gave you), was written by me but only as a combination of other people's work.

Please be sure to give them credit as well.
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Qndre
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:19 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

ExplodyThingy wrote:
Just a note, Im glad I can help and all, but that document on the ss protocol (the second one I gave you) was written by catid. Check the last line of the file. The other document, the protocol list (the first one I gave you), was written by me but only as a combination of other people's work.

Please be sure to give them credit as well.

Yes.
Just made my client able to send victory-packets to the server. So I can make the server give out a victory request and start victory music and give "Qndre makes a victory" message. (tried in Death Star Battle) But they didn't give victory-points to me. The mods didn't recognize my action. *i'm glad*
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Qndre
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:49 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

No. I wasn't able to do the action discribed above. It only took effect at local client but not at the others. icon_sad.gif It isn't as easy as I thought.
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Smong
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:01 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I am unaware of any gametype in SS that plays victory music and says "<name> makes a victory". Scoring a goal displays the player's name. Holding all the flags starts the music. Two different things.

@50% Packetloss
That is why public bots use VIE encryption, so the ops can control who can and can't login.
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Qndre
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:16 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Smong wrote:
I am unaware of any gametype in SS that plays victory music and says "<name> makes a victory". Scoring a goal displays the player's name. Holding all the flags starts the music. Two different things.

@50% Packetloss
That is why public bots use VIE encryption, so the ops can control who can and can't login.

Just look at DSB. They do. They don't say "<name> makes a victory", but "<team> makes a victory". They do so if you hold all the flags for five minutes. And if you hold all the flags and the five minutes aren't over the victory music is played.
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ExplodyThingy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:46 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Actually, thats not why. Thats a perk icon_smile.gif The reason is that no one has the motivation to fake a continuum connection, or even the need to. VIE encryption sustains the bots, they have so far lasted just as well as a client with the new scheme.

But, this is just returning to the original statements and therefore making a circular agruement.

Try simply sending a chat message, or a drop-koth. Later you can try faking a ship, then requesting the flag.
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Qndre
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:59 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

ExplodyThingy wrote:

Try simply sending a chat message, or a drop-koth. Later you can try faking a ship, then requesting the flag.

Drop-KotH? What's that? I know something about King-Of-The-Hill but it's very complicated. But how can you "drop" a KotH?
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ExplodyThingy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:59 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

Its a packet. And is pretty simple system. I just dealt with a guy who didnt know whether or not he was on dialup so I dont think Ill be going into detail right now.
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CypherJF
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:27 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

poor explodythingy icon_smile.gif
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:07 am   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

I don't know enough about encryption to try and crack some arbitrary method, but I do know that if it's custom it is likely to be weaker than open and tested methods. This means that either a) it's a relatively simple task or b) an existing method is used.

I also know that it is possible to agree upon an encryption key without passing enough information across the wire to allow someone to obtain it. Google for Diffie-Hellman key exchange, it's simple enough. That rules out proxies as a cheat mechanism with the exception of Man-In-The-Middle style connections and throws it back to local memory modifications.

As for MITM attacks, as far as I know, there is no way to prevent a MITM attack with one willing participant. Perhaps the only thing you could do would be to hard-code RSA keys into the client and have a secure remote server sign the zone IP lists, with the client sending a specific identifier when connecting to IPs verified in that list.

But this is still thwartable with some more work, or a NAT setup! But it's certainly more annoying eh?

Perhaps Cont client&server simply need a code update so they work differently.


Still, this whole security-through-obscurity kick with things like the Continuum protocol and certain bots etc. is really rather annoying. I'd like the whole deal a lot better if it was open sourced. All it does is stunt development IMO.

What if the entire thing was open-sourced minus the current encryption code? Are there enough interested programmers to take it in hand and beef it up against cheaters in a way that's still open and accessible to third party projects of interest like the one that started this thread?

Why doesn't anyone seem to find it desirable for random people to contribute useful (or useless) programs of their own to the Subspace "effort" as a whole?
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nintendo64
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 12:37 pm   Post maybe stupid    Post subject: Reply to topic Reply with quote

You can find some debates about what you want at

http://www.ssforum.net/index.php?showtopic=84

http://www.ssforum.net/index.php?showtopic=273

In the SSForum Board.
http://www.ssforum.net/index.php?act=idx

-nintendo64
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