Server Help

liito-orava · Novice Gender: Joined: Sep 24 2003 Posts: 41 Offline

Does anyone have experience on both MERV and TWCore?

Aside of that other is written in C++ and other in Java, which requires little different approach, what do you think when comparing features and especially speed?
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D1st0rt · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:22 am Post subject:

In my experience, they are about the same in speed. MERV however, takes far more system resources than TWCore. I think this is probably due to the fact that it has more features and has these running for each spawn. TWCore is more efficient because each bot is coded from the ground up, using only what you need. MERV recommends around 3 spawns, while you can run 10 TWCore bots off of one hub and not see any problems for most bots.

I'm working with some people on adding the features MERV has to TWCore, but we're making it so that you have to activate these features manually in whatever bot you want to use them in, saving resources. TWCore also has mySQL built into the core, with MERV you have to add it on your bots.

The main advantages I see MERV having are that TWCore's player position updates are not all that great, its settings, map parsing, and ball physics are (currently) unsupported, and that MERV doesn't always require sysop to log in.

I do feel, however, that TWCore is easier to develop on, and more stable to run than MERV. If one bot crashes and burns, it dies and the threads get cleaned up so you could just spawn it again if you wanted to. Obviously Trench Wars uses TWCore, and so does SSCU RedStar. The bot can obviously do a lot, because it runs all of the automated leagues and tournaments in tw, and stuff like spaceball (which you should watch if you get a chance, it's pretty neat).

I've found that I rarely use the additional MERV features for what I'm doing, and the TWCore architecture makes everything else fairly easy to do. But I'm naturally biased

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CypherJF · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject:

TWCore - doesn't support file (map / news) downloads; nor does it send EXE checksums, requiring a different level of staff-to login.

I believe TWCore is also multithreaded isn't it?
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50% Packetloss · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:11 pm Post subject:

1. Java is like the sesame street of programming langauges
2. Mervbot can handle a lot more than 3 spawns: the amount depends on what you are having each bot do and the speed of the computer.
3. Mervbot is very stable, plugins don't crash the bot and the bot will tell you the general area of your programming bug.

Overall, each bot has its advantages and disadvantages.

Mervbot was originally translated from a VB bot that catid made, so its packet handling may be a little slower plus all of its features do take up more memory. The core isn't really being worked on any longer, mostly just bug fixes, but it is open source so you can add whatever you want to it. Its probably a lot easier to pick up for new players, there is plenty of source code to read and a bit of documentation floating around the web.

I've never used TWcore but having mysql support is always nice. Player positions can be handled by plugins as long as the bot is able to move around in spec, but someone starting off would have difficulty understanding how to do all of this: most plugins don't require map data or player positions.

I guess the decision depends on what programming language you are most interested in learning. Java may be more easier to grasp for someone just starting out, plus is portable. C / C++ may be a little more difficult but more rewarding. You don't even know yet if you like programming, out of my class of 40 students in high school, only 2 of us actually enjoyed it.

Mr Ekted · Movie Geek Gender: Joined: Feb 09 2004 Posts: 1379 Offline

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[quote=50% Packetloss]
1. Java is like the sesame street of programming langauges
[/quote]

Heheh, this is true... but given the number of people with little to no programming experience who want to make bots, this is probably a good thing.

Also, the TWCore in its current state is not exactly what Id call stable. It lacks reconnection support, if the hubbot shuts down the entire core dies instantly without giving the bots a chance to cleanup, you cant send messages very fast or else theyll be dropped locally, it must be logged in as sysop, any names you plan on using for the bot must be registered before hand, and every bot ever made using the TWCore shares the same machineID/permissionID. Pray you never ban a player who also has that mac ID.

If youre gonna use anything use MERV, or perhaps you can buy off ekted and convince him to let you use powerbot, or (shameless advertisement) if you really want to use Java, try Hybrid.

-C

Cerium · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:30 pm Post subject:

Damn this thing allowing guests to post!

D1st0rt · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:45 pm Post subject:

Solo Ace · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:51 pm Post subject:

Wtf are you people talking about?
Needing a client to do server tasks in a game is silly, quit it!

liito-orava · Novice Gender: Joined: Sep 24 2003 Posts: 41 Offline

I don't mind about programming language. MERVBot doesn't require much more than basic knowledge to C++, and I've done some stuff with Java before.

I'm more intrested about which one takes less CPU time running basic stuff like elim and such.

Cerium · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:09 pm Post subject:

Solo: Even if/when ASSS is used globally, you still have the issue of trust. Are you really going to run code directly on your server unless you write it yourself?

Dis: To this day the hub dies on a regular basis... usually once a week (MRBots). Same exception everytime: The socket is timing out.

You can download Hybrid @ hybrid.shanky.com.

Meh... Ive never used powerbot myself either (got denied). The few who I have talked to that have used it said they liked it.

liito-orava · Novice Gender: Joined: Sep 24 2003 Posts: 41 Offline

Cerium the download link gives me 404 error.

Haven't really heard of that yet, gotta take a look.

Solo Ace · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:17 pm Post subject:

Cerium · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:35 pm Post subject:

Touche solo... but even still, the server is a far more sensitive environment where less people will have access to... So either zone owners are going to have to step up or were going to see far less ASSS plugins than we will ever see bots.

Oh and, the URL is fixed.

D1st0rt · Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:51 pm Post subject:

Ok, comparing TWCore to MERV for things like elim, TWCore uses less resources and I would think is better

50% Packetloss · Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:57 am Post subject:

If you are throwing ASSS into the mix, it is far superior to bots. There is a slight learning curve and the source code is kinda all over the place but once you figure everything out, its fairly nice. I personally am still learning it but it I already like it much more than the current bots. I've been trying to write something but school is busting my balls.

Smong · Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:09 am Post subject:

A long time ago I had a look at twcore and it wasn't immediately obvious how to setup/run it, so I gave up.

I just spent 20min looking at hybrid and couldn't get it to run. Errors executing the .jar files (failed to load Main-Class). I found the config files though. Even Asss tells you how to run it in the userguide and provides two obvious scripts, run-asss and asss.bat!

Mervbot has multiple configuration files, but actually runs unlike hybrid/twcore.

So I think I deviated from the original topic a bit. And I'm sure once the java bots are setup they run just fine, after all you only need to set them up once.

Maverick · Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:03 am Post subject:

One of the few things I can say of TWCore is that it uses less connection recources (system recources.. cmon.. its a simple bot) and therefore it can spawn more bots then Mervbot. However TWCore is not stable by far. I have seen it crash numerous times (never with a good cleanup) or just simply seen the window close in front of my eyes.

I am real fan of Mervbot. It got so many features you can do everything with it. It supports MySQL with a simple add-on class and its as stable as you make the plugins you load onto it.

Catid sais the max. spawns of mervbot are 3 when its remotely hosted. However I have already proven him wrong. Maximum Mervbot spawns we are hosting on one machine is now up to 5 spawns, however when we spawnin a single extra spawn all the bots ploss out. I hope catid gets some time to fix this one day.

As3 I don't know but I don't really plan to get into it because I don't want to go so far

I'd say go for mervbot.

BTW.. what is hybrid?
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Solo Ace · Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:31 am Post subject:

D1st0rt · Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:26 am Post subject:

Leip mannetje?

All these claims of unstability are interesting, I've never heard stuff like that before...

Cerium · Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:09 am Post subject:

D1st0rt · Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:14 am Post subject:

The twcore setup guide is at http://twcore.twzone.net

I prefer the batch file because the shortcut closes when the thing shuts down, and then I have to open up the folder again to view the log. I couldn't get it to run, something about not being able to allocate a connection... wtf? I got the source to the AlphaSpawn using jar -xf, but I didn't feel like decompiling the core to see whats going on. Why don't you include the source if its so good?

Cerium · Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:51 am Post subject:

Clearly because Im trying to hack you... and its working!

You probably did the same thing maverick did... [Connection] IP/Port in hybrid.ini is _local_, the IP youre going to connect to is in the bots spawn.ini file =)

2dragons · Novice Joined: Feb 17 2004 Posts: 95 Offline

Dr Brain · Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:48 am Post subject:

I've seen the hubbot die, but I hope that that version of the core is no longer in circulation

TWCore is much easier to write more complicated bots with. This is more due to the language choice than to the design. Having the Java API at your fingertips is quite powerful.

I never could have written the Area bots on Merv. Lots of people have tried, though. I've yet to see anyone succeed, and it's been a year and a half.

As to the ASSS security, I compile every custom module from source myself. It's not really a security issue; I'm more afraid of silly bugs crashing the zone. If I were concerned about security, I wouldn't give most of my mods sysop access.
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