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Trash Talk - C++ > * > VB

Donkano - Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:19 pm
Post subject: C++ > * > VB
Split by Mine GO BOOM at October 18, 2005, 4:27 pm

Quan Chi2 wrote:
wow lol you make an entire new map editor because your ssme wont start anymore... lol wow... you reallymake me want to learn vb now.. any recommendations on books or websites to get good at programming in vb like you? it seems kind of cool that you can almost complete a map editor in less than a week... im no expertthough so i dont really know if thats good but i think its awesome.. i should start learning that
gj man

will it be open src?i wannnnnnt ittttttttjust so i could learn from it biggrin.gif


C++ > VB.
Solo Ace - Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:42 am
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And why is that, Donkano?
Quan Chi2 - Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:06 am
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ya y? its harder to make easy to use apps in c++
Donkano - Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:18 pm
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Solo Ace wrote:
And why is that, Donkano?


Instead of bringing up the argument, I will just give you the links to other peoples arguments on it.

http://www.vbrad.com/pf.asp?p=source/src_top_10_cs.htm
http://www.visionx.com/mfcpro/rndtbl/whyvc.htm
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=285945
Quan Chi2 - Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:37 pm
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That doesn't make sense then.. HE asked YOU why C++ is better than vb. You should back up your opinion with your own explaination in this situation...
Solo Ace - Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:26 pm
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Yeah.
Mine GO BOOM - Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:48 pm
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Each language has their own advantages. If they didn't, no one would use them. Visual Basic is just that, a basic language that is easily adaptable for visual interfaces.

C/C++ is very popular for what it does. It stays out of the way of the programmer, letting them have full control over the application. You want to overwrite that important data because your 20 byte buffer cannot hold 50k worth of text? Sure, go ahead, the operating system will only stop me if it is outside my range of control. And for this, it is fast. If you know that a 20 byte buffer will never be overwritten, you don't need to check if every byte you put into it will be outside it's range. But if you do, its not the language's fault for your human error.

Java/C# can be lumped together as they are both attempting to be the dominate leader in the same field. They attempt to be simple to use, fast, and protect the programmer from their own error. The problem is that all three of these cannot co-exist. So the people designing and updating these languages, their libraries, and everything else about them always attempt to make each part work better. Garbage collection makes it simpler to use the language and protects against most memory leaks. Having huge libraries in which to pull useful functions so you don't need to find or create your own sorting algorithms. Bound checking on most writes. (read up on some of the white papers on compilers figuring out which writes don't need bounds checking, some of these people find the neatest tricks.)

Ruby [on Rails]/Prolog is great for what it does. Write rules, and let the computer figure out the rest. Very great for frameworks. Very friendly for non-computer technical designers to pick up. But this does come at a great cost of speed, though with some techniques such as rails not as much as it used to be.

There are many different style of languages for the many styles of programmers for the many styles of problems out there. Sure, a C forum software would run quick as hell, but you don't need the pure raw speed for that. RoR/PHP/Perl/etc all handle the task of converting data from one type to another in a pretty way very well. Create a SDL database server from these? Ha! I'd love to see the IT persons required to administer that mess.

My opinion on the direct reasoning for this arguement? For a Subspace level editor, almost any language will handle it perfectly fine. Hell, I made my own chat program in an interperative language called Dialect that ran on a slow-as-shit WinCE machine. Sure, at some times you could see the computer thinking about how to display a table of data, but the difference between 300ms and 10ms really don't matter when it gets updated every 20 seconds or so.
Donkano - Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:43 pm
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Quan Chi2 wrote:
That doesn't make sense then.. HE asked YOU why C++ is better than vb. You should back up your opinion with your own explaination in this situation...


What is the point? I mean other people have covered all the arguments for it. Why re-invent the wheel?

Edit:
Also, well said MGB.
Solo Ace - Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:13 pm
Post subject:
Everyone can have a different opinion, you still haven't stated yours...
I could actually like VB because of what it can do, and dislike C++ because of the differences opposed to VB.

Your "C++ > VB" doesn't mean anyhting, simply because you base that on nothing but someone else's opinions.
You obviously don't even "know" any of these languages, so you can't have a clear opinion on them, which you don't seem to have indeed.

You're one of those people stating things out of nowhere. I don't think I know much, but I can explain from my own point of view why I prefer a language over another. You should learn before you speak. Qndre.
Donkano - Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:21 pm
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Solo Ace wrote:
You obviously don't even "know" any of these languages, so you can't have a clear opinion on them, which you don't seem to have indeed.


Wrong. I do know C++. I don't know VB and nor do I care to because of what I have heard from multiple sources.
Mr Ekted - Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:24 pm
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C is better than VB because you actually have to have a clue to use it. In C, non-programmers cannot make an app. VB is like giving the guy who mows your lawn a "Brain Surgery For Dummies" kit. It's just a bad idea.

Because of systems like VB, a lot more people are pretending to be programmers who should not be, like Bill Gates.
Cyan~Fire - Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:03 pm
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Speaking of microsoft:
PSDK docs wrote:
IsDialogMessage can send DM_GETDEFID and DM_SETDEFID messages to the window. These messages are defined in the Winuser.h header file as WM_USER and WM_USER + 1, so conflicts are possible with application-defined messages having the same values.

Retards.
Mr Ekted - Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:36 pm
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You should be using WM_APP.
Mine GO BOOM - Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:38 am
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On the topic of Visual Basic, Microsoft is giving away a free eBook titled Introducing Visual Basic 2005 for Developers, which could possible be a good read for those that wish to learn a bit more about VB, even if so they can flame it with their own opinions other than speculations.
Muskrat - Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:39 am
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Mr Ekted wrote:
VB is like giving the guy who mows your lawn a "Brain Surgery For Dummies" kit. It's just a bad idea.
You people and your analogies! Stop it! Sure, that makes a point, but does it make it well?
Mr Ekted - Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:54 am
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I think it makes my point exactly. I don't want some guy who's only a programmer because he can "just get by" in VB to be responsible for handling my personal, financial, or medical data. I also don't want them writing any software that I'm going to use on my computer.

Look at the crap that even the "professionals" create in C: Internet Explorer, Word, WMP, Real Player, Quicktime, Netscape, Outlook, Thunderbird, Trillian, Acrobat, WinAmp.
Muskrat - Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:07 am
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Coor's Light is like having sex in a canoe. Both are fucking close to water.
Bak - Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:40 am
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talking about beer and sex makes you cool
Solo Ace - Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:50 am
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And you did what, Ekted? sa_tongue.gif

Donkano, you "knowing" C++ is why you couldn't solve your own problem in your thread about biller database entry removal?
You don't seem to know what "to know" means. icon_sad.gif
Being able to make a hello world program with a tutorial next to it does not really mean you know the language. icon_confused.gif
Mr Ekted - Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:01 am
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I did none of those, so I can look myself in the face. icon_smile.gif
SamHughes - Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:13 am
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Take the language Scheme, and add a requirement that call-with-current-continuation must be used somewhere productively in the program, or else it won't compile.

This requires a larger clue than C requires. It is a better language than C!
Mr Ekted - Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:30 am
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Bull. Languages that are more complex or harder to use are not better simply because more experience is needed to use them. In fact, I find restrictive languages (Java, BASIC) to be a huge pain in the ass. Only the programmer knows his intent. The language should not constraint you or police you.
SamHughes - Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:52 am
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No, you're wrong. Scheme with forced call-with-current-continuation is better than C because you actually have to have a clue to use it.
Dr Brain - Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:17 am
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Ekted, you say C is better because you need to have a clue how to use it. Then you go to list all the C programs that suck and say languages that require more of a clue are bad.

You have to have a clue to work in Java too. I'd say the fact that you have a problem working in it means you don't.

For me, I'd say that the fact that tons of C programs have bugs in them says something about the language. Plenty of Java programs have bugs too, but you don't see them taking down the whole system.
Mr Ekted - Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:21 pm
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You are combining two points. VB is bad because it allows newbs to pretend to be able to program. The inverse is not a point I was trying to make.

You can write bugs in any language. C allows you to do anything, no matter how stupid. Java (et al) does not. This is not a failure of the language or the operating system. I simply find the overhead of type checking, bounds checking, and treating everything as an object to be unacceptible. It's one of the reasons we have 10MB apps that do almost nothing, and why our computers are 30x faster than 10 years ago but things run even slower.
Donkano - Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:21 pm
Post subject:
Mr Ekted wrote:
It's one of the reasons we have 10MB apps that do almost nothing, and why our computers are 30x faster than 10 years ago but things run even slower.


Oh yeah, I remember back in the day on my 3.86 running Windows 3.1 playing Dark Moon and Wolfenstein 3D.

It ran fairly well. And today with my 1.6GHz things like Java take about 5-7s to load an application. A C program takes 1-2s to load.
Quan Chi2 - Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:25 pm
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Solo Ace wrote:
And you did what, Ekted? sa_tongue.gif

Donkano, you "knowing" C++ is why you couldn't solve your own problem in your thread about biller database entry removal?
You don't seem to know what "to know" means. icon_sad.gif
Being able to make a hello world program with a tutorial next to it does not really mean you know the language. icon_confused.gif


lol so true.. lol I couldnt have said it better myself LOL, hello world lol

Donkano, is this true?
newb - Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:25 pm
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Oh, your so precise.
Do you have a special watch just to record the times it takes to load a program?
Quan Chi2 - Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:38 pm
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Who are you speaking to, newb? I hope it isn't me..
Donkano - Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:39 pm
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Quan Chi2 wrote:
[..]



lol so true.. lol I couldnt have said it better myself LOL, hello world lol

Donkano, is this true?


It is because I don't know how to decrypt it.

Also, hello world is easy.

#include <iostream.h>
int main()
{
cout << "Hello world!";
return 0;
}
Quan Chi2 - Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:41 pm
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Who asked for you to write the hello world code for us? lol you must be proud that you memorized it so well... lol funny..
Donkano - Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:46 pm
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Quan Chi2 wrote:
Who asked for you to write the hello world code for us? lol you must be proud that you memorized it so well... lol funny..


Are you retarded? I didn't memorize the code given, I memorized how to program PROPERLY you dumb ass. No point reading your messages in this topic any more, you're just turning it into a flame topic.
Dr Brain - Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:40 pm
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He didn't memorize it (or he memorized it wrong). The code he gave wouldn't compile.
Bak - Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:53 pm
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Quote:
lol so true.. lol I couldnt have said it better myself LOL, hello world lol

over 25% of your words are "lol"

old iostreams are depricated; it would have compiled 5 years ago
Dr Brain - Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:43 pm
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Don't you need a using namespace std even then?
SamHughes - Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:09 pm
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Mr Ekted wrote:
C allows you to do anything, no matter how stupid.


There are a number of things you can't do in C.


[Edit: never mind, I'm not even talking about what you're talking about; this has nothing to do with the conversation.]
Assassin2684 - Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:38 pm
Post subject:
Donkano wrote:
[..]



It is because I don't know how to decrypt it.

Also, hello world is easy.

#include <iostream.h>
int main()
{
cout << "Hello world!";
return 0;
}


I just wanted to fix your problem..

#include <iostream.h>
int main()
{
cout << "Hello world!" << endl;
return 0;
Donkano - Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:41 pm
Post subject:
Assassin2684 wrote:
[..]



I just wanted to fix your problem..

#include <iostream.h>
int main()
{
cout << "Hello world!" << endl;
return 0;


Ya whatever. Simple little error. besides, you have an error yourself.

You have no ending "}".
Bak - Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:45 pm
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that wouldn't stop it from compiling
Assassin2684 - Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:57 pm
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Ya really, thats not exactly needed.
Mr Ekted - Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:46 pm
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Donkano wrote:
#include <iostream.h>


Including iostream adds 100k to your EXE, newb. icon_sad.gif
D1st0rt - Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:59 pm
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Ekted, you should bring back Level 1 Knowledge and have some kind of certification
Mr Ekted - Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:15 am
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Haha! It would be wasted here.

Code: Show/Hide
Obj WasteCPU (Obj o1)
{
Obj o2;

o2 = o1;

return (o2);
}

Solo Ace - Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:57 am
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Code: Show/Hide
void Ekted()
{
   // Uhhhhhhhhhh???
}

Mr Ekted - Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:18 am
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Hahaha! This thread is out of control!!!!!!!!!!!!
Spyed - Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:28 am
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Mr Ekted wrote:
Hahaha! This thread is out of control!!!!!!!!!!!!


Clam down..

The Raging monkeys aren't out yet icon_smile.gif
Donkano - Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:36 am
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Mr Ekted wrote:
[..]



Including iostream adds 100k to your EXE, newb. icon_sad.gif


Ya, but isn't it required for that script, as it handles the cout comand?
Assassin2684 - Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:46 am
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Here is another example of the cout command as this is how my book shows it:

Code: Show/Hide
#include <iostream>
#include <stdlib.h

int main(int argc. char *argv[])
(
   cout << "Hello, I am your computer talking." << endl;
   system("PAUSE");
   returm 0;
)

Dr Brain - Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:40 am
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Burn your book. There are no fewer than two errors in that piece of code.
Bak - Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:42 am
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three
Anonymous - Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:56 am
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Well mabye I made the mistakes because I typed it all out. I guess I will look over it..
D1st0rt - Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:53 pm
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I think they're probably just typos
Anonymous - Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:06 pm
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Ya your probably right.
Mr Ekted - Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:53 pm
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Donkano wrote:
Ya, but isn't it required for that script, as it handles the cout comand?


That was the point I was making.
Cyan~Fire - Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:04 pm
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Four, actually, and one of them was more than a type. You use <iostream> but referenced cout and endl without a namespace.

And don't be so mean and vague, Ekted. What he's saying, Donkano, is that the real way to do it is actually via printf(), a reasonably simple function that is practically built in to the OS (or at least a heck of a lot closer than the iostream classes are).
Mr Ekted - Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:11 pm
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Awww, you're no fun. icon_smile.gif
Dr Brain - Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:52 pm
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I wasn't willing to actually compile it. I just eyeballed it.
Bak - Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:55 am
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windows doesn't have a write() function? boo
Cyan~Fire - Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:07 pm
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Of course it does, but that's not very platform-independent. (And Windows is hard to deal with anyway.)
D1st0rt - Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:23 pm
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I think printf is easier to use than cout sa_tongue.gif
Bak - Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:26 pm
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can't printf objects
Mr Ekted - Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:14 pm
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Bak wrote:
can't printf objects


You can't cout objects either without each object having its own serialization code, which is the same as adding custom code with printf.
Quan Chi2 - Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:59 pm
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hey does objects include sound effects?
Cyan~Fire - Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:45 am
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@Ekted: How would you add custom code to printf() without recompiling the CRT? Wouldn't you have to rewrite printf() in your own app?
Mr Ekted - Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:12 pm
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I don't mean IN the printf code, I mean just have a function that takes an "object", and printf's the desired info. It's exactly the same with C++, just hidden.
SamHughes - Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:18 pm
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Cyan~Fire wrote:
Four, actually


There's more than meets the eye!

Code: Show/Hide
#include <iostream>
#include <stdlib.h

int main(int argc. char *argv[])
(
   cout << "Hello, I am your computer talking." << endl;
   system("PAUSE");
   returm 0;
)


1. #include <stdlib.h (not to mention deprecation)
2. argc.
3. ( instead of {
4. cout instead of std::cout
5. endl instead of std::endl
6. returm
7. ) instead of }

3 and 7, and 4 and 5 are the same errors really, but still, that makes at least five.

8. In "Hello, I am your computer talking.", the computer's not really talking. :-)
Bak - Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:51 pm
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it looks nice to be able to do on one line

cout << "obj1: " << obj1 << ", obj2: " << obj2 << endl;

instead of having to memorize the functions for the diifferent objects and using multiple lines (although I suppose you could give your objects a print() function):

printf("obj1: ");
printObject(obj1);
printf(", obj2: ");
printDifferentObject(obj2);
printf("\n");

but these are small apples in either case.

what do I need to #include for write() in Windows?
Mr Ekted - Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:15 pm
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There's a low-level function in the RTL called _write(). The include file is io.h. But I wouldn't normally use this. I like fwrite/fputs. The actual Windows function is called WriteFile(), but you really shouldn't use the OS-specific calls for run-time things unless you REALLY need to optimize.
D1st0rt - Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:47 pm
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I believe outputting \a makes a beep
Cyan~Fire - Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:56 pm
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Ekted wrote:
but you really shouldn't use the OS-specific calls for run-time things unless you REALLY need to optimize.

And the run-time library stuff is a lot easier to use than Windows.

What I was trying to say before is that without extra work you can't really do
Code: Show/Hide
printf("Hi, %s, your stats are %o.", name, stats);
. Yes, the C++ version is just a bunch of different function calls and it is nicer just to have one, but in this specific case I do think the C++ way wins out.
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