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General Questions - Continuum Game Development -- OpenGL

Anonymous - Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:23 pm
Post subject: Continuum Game Development -- OpenGL
Hi,

I was wondering if anyone knows how I can get a hold of Continuum developers. I'd like to port the game (client) to SDL/OpenGL for cross platform support on Linux/OSX (windows as well of course).

Thanks.

Peter
EdTheInvincible - Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:47 pm
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The developers probably wont give you the source code, so in my opinion, you won't be able to port it.
50% Packetloss - Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:58 pm
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Why is it that every time I give someone an answer to thier question on forumhq.com, they come here and ask the same question expecting a different answer.
EdTheInvincible - Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:07 pm
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Last time they asked here first.
Mr Ekted - Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:42 pm
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Only 1 Cont developer even reads this forum, and I don't have any of the graphics portion of the code.
Cyan~Fire - Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:21 pm
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Yeah, the others stay elsewhere.

(There's only 1 more.)
D1st0rt - Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:22 pm
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Does it use DirectDraw currently?
Mr Ekted - Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:42 pm
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Yes. DirectDraw 2.
Anonymous - Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:39 am
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You know what guys .. have it your way. Continuum is no one's to own. In my opinion it should be released under the GPL for free use. I have been playing Subspace since 1994 when Virgin first released it. A lot of work has been put into developing the community and if you'd like to keep the game in limbo that is your choice.

With the source code or not, I will create a game very similar. It may not use the same protocols, however will look and feel identical, if not better.

Btw, will be released under the GPL and cross-platform compatible.

Peter
Bak - Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:54 am
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Go for it... we'll adapt ASSS to let your protocol and youll be able to play with Continuum clients without a hitch.

Don't say it should be released under GPL, as that's the developers choice, not your's or the community's. There are lots of security issues involved in an open source client, and although forcing people to use assembly isn't true security, it's much harder to do what you want working in assembly.
Mr Ekted - Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:09 am
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1. If you GPL the game, it will get hacked/cheated to bits.

2. Don't use VIE protocol for a new game. Make a good one. icon_smile.gif
Gravitron - Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:32 am
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Peter, I wish you best of fortune and please stay in touch (ICQ me).
And while at it, make something better and not as limited as continuum client/subspace as a whole.
Aim more towards Infantry engine, or even better (at least graphically).

I have already seen many freeplay one-man projects out there with a far more customizeable gameplay engine than SS as well as a much more eye-attracting graphic engine.
The only problem was that they were singleplayer.
But since there is ASSS, all is lacking is the introduction of client-side networking to them and ASSS could be modified to run their games (so you have a premade server and don't need to do much work on that front).

And don't let these people discourage you, their emotional fear of cheating-will-kill-my-game surpass their ability to reason logically.

As for continuum, Priit would not release source for it, ever.
For one, as said (by him, or as we been told by those close to him to be his claims), he fears cheating, IMO too much.
For two, he most likely keep the option of trying to sell it to someone (if he had not already signed it over to BDE/sherman/alt-net) or build something out of it in the future.


Once again, good luck Peter, make us proud.

Don't use continuum protocol, make a better one.
SuSE - Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:34 pm
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Continuum _is_ someone's to own - SubSpace, however, is not (unless you're being technical).

...but, really, make one from scratch to work with ASSS - Continuum is just hacked SubSpace. icon_smile.gif
Anonymous - Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:27 pm
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I have created a team of 3 developers ready to begin this project with me.

I will keep you guys posted. I have still not decided whether or not I want to release it under the GPL. If I do, I intend to add a lot of anti-cheat protection on the server side.

By the way, I have not yet looked at ASSS, is the code open? does the server only run on windows? Thanks

Peter
myke - Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:34 pm
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http://sscx.net/asss asss was originally made for linux but it was created for windows too at first by catid a seperate person but the original creator made a windows version and yeah it's open source
Mine GO BOOM - Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:49 pm
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myke wrote:
http://sscx.net/asss asss was originally made for linux but it was created for windows too at first by catid a seperate person but the original creator made a windows version and yeah it's open source

It was originally ported to Windows by myself and Grelminar. Divine.216 later help clean up the code a bit more. Catid later made binaries more often, as I was going through a lot of school work at the time and wasn't able to keep up as often as I'd like. He also added in a lot of other little patches and extras, some of which Grelminar has added back into the main build for ASSS.

Grelminar has always been trying to be able to release his own Windows builds, but hasn't always had the time to try and figure it out.
myke - Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:54 pm
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oh :X yeah i don't pay attention to much stuff lol
Cyan~Fire - Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:12 am
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Quote:
If I do, I intend to add a lot of anti-cheat protection on the server side.

Please be aware that any server-side cheat protection will either be very complex or useless. That is, unless you essentially have the server "playing" for every player, it won't be able to detect subtle things like slightly off position packets, too-fast weapon packets, or the famous Twister wrong prize thing.
Dr Brain - Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:49 am
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And if you play for every player, then the server would be something like 100 times more CPU intensive than a running copy of continuum for something like TW.

That figure is assuming that the server can play 5 players in the same amount of CPU time that it takes Cont to play 1. If you do a bad job, then of course, it wont even be that efficient.
Cerium - Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:03 am
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Implement something like punkbuster (http://www.punkbuster.org/). Of course PB isnt free, but this is the type of thing youd want to do. And if anyone disagrees, I hate you.
50% Packetloss - Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:22 am
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Punkbuster doesn't work, people get around it all the time in America's Army.
CypherJF - Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:34 am
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Everything comes down to 1's and 0's. And with that reason, anything you do with a compute can be undone (essentially).
myke - Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:57 am
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there's a game called risk your life and it has "hack protection" but people use speeders all the time(they level your character up while you're afk and whatnot) and the hack protection program runs on your computer and you can't play if you turn it off
Mr Ekted - Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:47 pm
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Anyone else getting a distinctly Qndre odor in here? grav_cry.gif
Cyan~Fire - Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:26 pm
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Aww come on, Ekted, it's not that bad yet!
Mr Ekted - Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:02 pm
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I have pre-olfacnition.
Cyan~Fire - Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:28 pm
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Ah. Sometimes I wish I had that talent.
D1st0rt - Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:48 pm
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At least this person knows what OpenGL is and isn't talking about how they broke cont encryption in 5 seconds by reading some file that subgame spit out in their visual basic app
Anonymous - Sat Mar 19, 2005 4:11 pm
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Hey guys..

in terms of copyrights and trademarks for "Subspace", does anyone know what the rules are? Including things such as the brand 'Subspace', the ships (warbird, etc.).. the graphics, the sounds ..

Peter
50% Packetloss - Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:08 am
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The game can't be called "Subspace" because you'll get sued. The owners of the rights to subspace have the obligation to protect company assets, so by calling the game Subspace you'll force them to take you to court; Or at least that's how it was explained to me.
i88gerbils - Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:45 am
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Concentrating on a new protocol is your best bet... if you can tack it onto a VIE client that you made. Hell, just make a client that can choose between VIE and your own protocol.

The reason why Ekted's so pessimistic is due to his views that have been posted repeatedly about this subject, and it deepens everytime he has to explain it.
Mr Ekted - Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:55 am
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1. Most people think making an SS clone is easy, and they have no clue.

2. Most people who program think they are good, and they have no idea they suck.

3. Even if you made a better game than SS with fully functional client/server/hosts, you'd have a tough time getting a player base. A game is more than the code and the infrastructure; it's the community. There's an awful lot of inertia in a community.
Maverick - Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:25 am
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Respect, Ekted
Anonymous - Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:56 pm
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Does anyone know if there exists a file format spec on the maps used in continuum? I was playing with the editor and I can see it knows what type of object has what property based on the row (ie. fly under, fly over)..

I am trying to find how the map was assembled so I can build an SDL wrapper to read/load the maps.

Thanks.

Peter
Smong - Sun Mar 20, 2005 6:54 pm
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http://wiki.minegoboom.com/index.php/LVL_Format
Anonymous - Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:01 pm
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Thanks so much. I arleady created a basic engine for ContinuumX (what im calling the SDL release). Right now I have the warbird flying around a very basic map... still need a lot of work.

Is there a place I can download all the extracted bitmaps (ships, bullets, greens, etc.), sounds and any other media used in the game? Not sure if such a resource is available. If not I will have to extract it all manually.

Thanks.

Peter
Smong - Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:19 pm
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Extract, lol. They are in your Continuum graphics and sound directory.
Anonymous - Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:23 pm
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Eeek.. My mistake .. I don't actually have continuum on this machine as im developing on an OSX box. I'll go download the game. thanks.

Thanks.

Peter
Smong - Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:28 pm
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There is some stuff here:
http://www.subspacedownloads.com/index.php?act=list&cat=16
elux - Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:50 pm
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one thing I'm still trying to understand is why all the bitmaps were renamed to .bm2 and all the wavs to .wa2 .. was this to prevent people from accidentally editing them?

In addition, are there any other specifications on subspace/continuum out there? maybe something like the chat protocol or game network i/o.

Peter
elux - Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:08 pm
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Nevermind .. I was able to find a good reference

http://wiki.minegoboom.com/index.php/Category:Protocol

I'll message back when I get something working. thanks guys.
Cyan~Fire - Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:10 am
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elux wrote:
one thing I'm still trying to understand is why all the bitmaps were renamed to .bm2 and all the wavs to .wa2 .. was this to prevent people from accidentally editing them?

I think someone once said that VIE was going to create a modified format based on bmp and wav, but never got around to it.
EdTheInvincible - Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:16 pm
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Well, I can't play their .flc files with anything else than ss..
elux - Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:25 pm
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This message is for Mr. Ekted or anyone else who might know...

in terms of the game ai (ship movement), is there a spec on the parameters the server excepts to pass for ship speed/accell? from my understanding I should implement velocity/accelleration equations with force vectors and leave parameters open for the magnitude of the vectors (speed). These values would be retrieved upon entering a zone... correct?

Right now I am implementing the object (ship/bullet/bomb/thor/shrapnel) movement based on observation; is there a spec that shows the physics ai parameters used in continuum? (friction, gravity, force, etc. etc.)

Thanks

Peter
Mr Ekted - Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:36 pm
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There's no spec. Friction and gravity are not known for sure. Velocities are specified in pixels per 10 seconds. You can look at the MERV source to see the contents of the arena settings packet.
elux - Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:16 am
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Ok thanks..

I talked to Snrrrub a few minutes ago and he mentioned the problem continuum encryption creates for 3rd party clients. The only way a 3rd party client (like mine, his or pxlyz's) will work is if we use the same encryption method.

seeing as how thats not an open algorithm .. it would be impossible to use a 3rd party ss client unless 1.) you cracked the algorithm (in which case a new version of continuum would be released with an updated algo) 2.) you are granted VIP access and use the old VIE algorithm

I wish there was some way of getting a linux / osx ss client out. There is a lot of development talent from Snrrrub and others but a lot of barriers to entry.

its unfortunate.

Peter
Anonymous - Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:06 am
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in what units are thrust and rotation in the settings? i dont think they are pixels/10s.. (?)
Maverick - Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:25 am
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EdTheInvincible wrote:
Well, I can't play their .flc files with anything else than ss..

.flc is an old movie format from .fly I think.
You should be able to find some (dos) .fly movie viewers for it.
i88gerbils - Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:27 am
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Quote:
we'll adapt ASSS to let your protocol and youll be able to play with Continuum clients without a hitch.


I think that was said in this very thread.... O_O
Cyan~Fire - Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:01 am
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Quote:
in what units are thrust and rotation in the settings? i dont think they are pixels/10s.. (?)

Smong and I had a debatea about the readability of this, but rotation is in 90°/hundredths of seconds (That is, 400 for a full rotation in 1s). AFAIK, nobody knows what thrust is in.
Mine GO BOOM - Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:09 pm
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Cyan~Fire wrote:
Smong and I had a debatea about the readability of this, but rotation is in 90°/hundredths of seconds (That is, 400 for a full rotation in 1s). AFAIK, nobody knows what thrust is in.


Thrust shouldn't be hard to test. With settings, set thrust to 10 or something, and max speed to 10000. Then, in an empty map with a bot or something, start at a dead stop on a side, and go off to the other side holding UP. Have the bot read off the current speed/time since you started, and once you hit the max speed, you'll have the time it took for 10 units of thrust to reach 10,000 speed. A = V * T, so thrust = 1000 / TIME in seconds with these settings.

That said, someone want to start a Subspace Physics wiki with all these equations?
elux - Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:51 pm
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Well it would be nice to have a standardized set of game ai (physics) rules to make sure all 3rd party clients adhere to a set.
Mr Ekted - Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:05 pm
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You are proceeding with this given Snrrrub's correct comments about encryption? If so, I'd like to know how you plan for your client ever to be used.
Bak - Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:20 pm
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assume your own settings that make sense.... like accel (instead of thrust) in pixels / second^2, speed in pixels / second ect. ASSS can be modified to send your client the settings in any way you see fit, so rather than working with a cryptic system like thrust and friction use settings that make sense.
Cyan~Fire - Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:00 pm
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MGB wrote:
That said, someone want to start a Subspace Physics wiki with all these equations?

I've already dispersed what I have found out easily (that method you described isn't easy. icon_razz.gif) in the various settings. I guess one page with all equations might be useful to some people.
elux - Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:12 pm
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Mr Ekted wrote:
You are proceeding with this given Snrrrub's correct comments about encryption? If so, I'd like to know how you plan for your client ever to be used.


Persistence is key. If that means I need to write subspace from the ground up with new protocols and a new server (or adapt current ones) .. then so be it.
Solo Ace - Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:21 pm
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Mr Ekted wrote:
2. Most people who program think they are good, and they have no idea they suck.


Hah, ever checked pscode.com?
Cyan~Fire - Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:43 pm
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How old are you, elux? This is not meant to be insulting, I'm seriously wondering if you'll have a job (read: no free time) any time soon. icon_razz.gif
Gravitron - Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:34 am
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elux wrote:
in terms of copyrights and trademarks for "Subspace", does anyone know what the rules are?


Bottom line goes like this:
A. The material is copyrighted.
B. The owners seem not to care to enforce the copyrights in all these years (for some time they didn't even know they have them).


Ekted wrote:

1. ....
2. ....
3. ....

Since Ekted decided to turn this onto a trash thread, (esp. with his Qandre comments) I throw my mind bit as well:
4. Ekted has never, AFAIK, made a game like SS.
5. Ekted's entire role in continuum client was the skins.
6. There are quite a few programmers out there better (or not) than Ekted who have actually done these.


elux wrote:
one thing I'm still trying to understand is why all the bitmaps were renamed to .bm2 and all the wavs to .wa2


Jeff wished to make it so you can modify his game all over, graphics and sounds included.
In his VIE client, all the original core graphics and sounds were placed onto resource.dll and sound.dll, extra 16bit sound sets at sound16.dll and the menu GUI at subui24.dll (easily extractable with a resource hacker).
Now, whenever you wished to override one of these with your own, you would just place a file that has a name identical to those ones in the dlls
and have its extension set to the corrosponding format (bm2 for bmp and wa2 for wav, this signals the client to use the override file instead of the original).
As to why Priit chose to have continuum to load graphics from *.*2 files instead of the regular extension...I have no idea.
As for his reasoning to throwing up bmps and wavs instead of using a resource dll (which was in use upto 38 or so), I quite disagree.
It just ends up taking space, lots of space.
Having zones overlap with their graphics (since this game lacks centralization) is also rather unefficient and space-consuming.

But, go help the deaf, blind and mute.


EdThe... wrote:
Well, I can't play their .flc files with anything else than ss..

If I recall correctly, I used good old smack player to run those, or the older mpeg2 player of win95/98 (also supplied with winXP).

As for encryption, I probably speak crap, since I know nothing of these issues, however:
I know MGB issued a security plugin-dll for ASSS, meant for making continuum clients able to work with it, since their encryption prevents ASSS from regulary communicating with them.
Perhaps this can be used by reverse engineering to make a client work like continuum dealing with a regular server?
Eitherway, just use ASSS, forget continuum and current subgame, they been FUBAR'rd.


I don't know what Priit made thrust and rotation in continuum, but I be pretty certain Jeff has explained his VIE client on these regards once, I will try to do some digging at my free time...
Mr Ekted - Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:49 am
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Gravitron wrote:
[..]5. Ekted's entire role in continuum client was the skins.


Everything outside of play is my code: menu, profiles, macros, keydefs, zone update, trace, options, banner editor, skins, and chat window. I also wrote Powerbot from scratch (ie I didn't use any code from VIE or get help from someone else's ASM rips). I also wrote ssVCR.
Smong - Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:53 pm
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I still haven't found any files to use with ssvcr icon_sad.gif

Anonymous wrote:
Right now I have the warbird flying around a very basic map... still need a lot of work.
Here is my diagnosis in favour of Qndre:
1) Doesn't know who the developers are/were
2) Release cont under the GPL? We may be dealing with a fanatic here
3) He's got 3 people on this project, none of them seem to know a thing about the game (including himself)
4) Server side cheat protection? Dr Brain says it would put too much load on the server.
5) Mr Ekted and MMaverick have hinted that this won't go far.
6) Misuse of what looks to be artifical intelligence (or 'ai' could be french for 'physics')
7) Worrying about encryption at this early stage

elux wrote:
Persistence is key. If that means I need to write subspace from the ground up with new protocols and a new server (or adapt current ones) .. then so be it.
Although this quote does look promising. And one shouldn't judge a book by its cover.
Gravitron - Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:00 pm
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The first row is completely...rather useless, nothing out of the ordinary.
Powerbot I know nothing of, so it doesn't matter to me, and if I remember right it be in sole use of SSC tops, so it means even less to the open public.
As for SSVCR, from what I understood it only recorded player movement, didn't track the powerball nor weapons, which rendered it rather a futile piece of code and wasted time, hypercam works better.



People call me pesimist, but when it comes to discouraging people from out-coding-continuum and creating (better) alternatives, you get the first place.



The only thing I find worth of note in you is that you know assembly.
Then again, it isn't an extinct ancient art.
And Aaerox by himself seem quite capable even he is years younger.
Cerium - Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:30 pm
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Grav, I originally typed a five paragraph essay pointing out various topics I disagreed with and giving reasons, but its just easier to say:

Youre wrong, I hate you, be quiet.
Mr Ekted - Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:53 pm
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I am quite possibly the most qualified person in all of SS to make a new client, however I have no interest:

- Too much work for what would likely be no adoption.
- Like I've said 100 times before, it couldn't replace Cont because they would just change the encryption. Yes, even if I did it.
- After all the work on client and bots/protocols and ssvcr, the whole idea is just not interesting enough.


Grav, you simply try to discredit me for no reason, while supporting those with 1/10 my skill. I don't troll these boards to flame Continuum or those who run it. I am here to legitimately help. When people ask questions, I give them honest feedback. Even with Qndre, did you see how much time I devoted to the actual technical conversation? At some point, people are just wasting their time, and everyone else's. If someone is going to seriously tackle writing a bot core, or a new client, or whatever, they need to know up front that this is not a Programming 101 problem. If they can't get past the basic issues, they are hopeless. If they really have a clue, and understand what they are getting into, then they will always get help here.
Gravitron - Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:50 pm
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I will say the same thing I have said in that other thread.
If you are here, and you open your mouth, it is to assist others.
Otherwise, hush.
It's not for you to discourage people due to your own lack of interest.
It's not for you to determine whether they are qualified, serious, or otherwise about doing these projects.

None ever said it is an easy "hello world" task.
But none need to hear just how impossibly difficult it is for them or in general.

As for
Quote:
I am quite possibly the most qualified person in all of SS to make a new client

Sounds to me quite egotistical, arrogant and pompus, and it's about the end of the extent of the length I go to refer to.

Quote:
When people ask questions, I give them honest feedback.

Guess what, so do I.

Quote:
Like I've said 100 times before, it couldn't replace Cont because they would just change the encryption. Yes, even if I did it.

Exactly why this matters to anything?
You make a new client, the public will choose whether to use it or not instead of continuum.
Which, if you open source it or at the very least produce "frequent" (as far as reasonable) updates, is more than most likely to happen.

I try to discredit you for no reason? Doubtly.
Not as half as you try to discredit Jeff, or others who aren't priitk.
I merely reciprocate your attitude.



Cerium, go join runescape crew, ignored.
Cyan~Fire - Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:52 pm
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Grav wrote:
Since Ekted decided to turn this onto a trash thread

Wait, did you say Ekted?
Mr Ekted - Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:35 pm
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Find me a single quote where I try to discredit Jeff. I have nothing against him at all. I do not have the attitude that "VIE sucked so we had to fix it". He did a great thing making SS. It's not perfect, but he got it done, and it works. If it were not for the cheating, we would likely still be using it. The person I am most upset with in all of SS is PriitK, mostly for the same reasons as you, but not all.
elux - Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:51 pm
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I thought the cheating had been taken care of with Continuum's encryption?
Mr Ekted - Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:55 pm
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Mostly. Still some issues and we are waiting on PriitK do deal with them. So it may be never.
CypherJF - Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:59 pm
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*grows grey hair* hmm still waiting for priitk tongue.gif
Liquid Mercury - Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:37 pm
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How often does he make an appearance? and for how long? You make it seem like hes here only during an eclipse (as an example).
Mr Ekted - Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:03 pm
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Some anecdotes:

- After being absent for 6 months prior to 0.39, I get an email out of the blue: "Send me any fixes/changes you have. Releasing tomorrow."

- The last 3 emails I sent him (3-6 months ago) are all unanswered.

- Even Ghost Ship has been unable to get him to release a 0.39 final to deal with recent problems and bugs.

- He tends to make an appearance if TW gets hacked or otheriwse needs something.
Cerium - Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:06 pm
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So if we hack TW...
Mr Ekted - Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:29 pm
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I didn't say that...
Liquid Mercury - Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:29 pm
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He'll make a magic appearance, and we'll all be astonished by his presence.
CypherJF - Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:05 pm
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indeed -- nothing gets done unless TW needs it. :/ (or for general security of the game)
Mr Ekted - Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:25 pm
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I emailed Priit an ASM dump of code showing a bug in Cont 0.39pr3 months ago. No reply.
elux - Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:38 pm
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It's not like Priit gets paid for subspace development, so you can't actually get mad at him for being busy with other things. It's entirely up to him if he decides to keep working on the client or not. However, I do think if he's decided to dump the project he should pass down the source code to yourself or someone else involved in continuum development. That will probably never happen though.

Peter
Cyan~Fire - Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:29 pm
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I think you just discovered why we're a little ticked at him, elux. He's forced us all into a corner.
Mr Ekted - Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:56 pm
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Well, we (hosts) were not forced to use Cont. We can still all go back to VIE. icon_smile.gif
CypherJF - Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:14 am
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Well if it wasn't for cheaters we could easily do so...
Bak - Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:24 am
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and revert to non-lvzed zones? doubt it... bugs too
Anonymous - Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:11 am
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Security will be an issue but not one as severe and common, I believe, as that it will ... to be continued soon.
Maverick - Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:24 am
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Mr Ekted wrote:
We can still all go back to VIE. icon_smile.gif

VIE server is downloadable somewhere?
Gravitron - Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:17 am
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Maverick wrote:
[..]


VIE server is downloadable somewhere?

Sure, if you hack onto the PC of GS, MGB, divine or any of those other ppl who got it.



As I been saying, there will be cheating, of course, perhaps even a newer more difficult to detect one, but I doubt it will be of the proportions as Ekted say, as that it will utterly destroy the game.
The main problem with twister been inexperienced staff who were unable to block the cheaters from reentry (only sysop could, as *kill bans merely targeted the macID).
Now with BanG, and proper training, it wouldn't be that much of a problem.
And aside SVS zones, and even there, twister really is hard to put to practice without being detected.
Server side measures can also be put in place to prevent twister, anyway.
As for whatever new cheat if at all, if it become commonly spread, then it won't be a problem to disassemble it and find a way to stop it as well.
If it's not public, who's to say it's any different than nowdays (if there's a person who cheat with continuum, and do it smart, who can tell then? since continuum is considered 90% trusted hack-proof).
I sincerely believe that VIE can be made to work, and cheating on it can be coped with, if people who have the knowledge put their arm to working on patching it out.


The real reason I would find to object using VIE, would be due to the new features of continuum.
The lvzs are unsubstituteable for the proper functioning of some zones, not to mention 32bit GFX make for a nicer eye-candy and the extra tiles/bigger map are always nice to have as expansion of the designer's options.
For the SVS zones, this may prove less of a problem.



Ekted, lets continue this discussion in private.
Perhaps, unlike certain parties here, we can reach a concensus like mature adults.
Bak - Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:50 am
Post subject:
by using subspace all the issues of using an open protocol are put into play. Server side checks can do little unless you force the server to play a client for each player connected to the server (in effect the same problem as creating a new client). Even if you manage to pull that off and not kill the server's CPU, you can cheat by taking advantage of anything random in the game... spawns, damage, prizes in greens, you name it. Zones like EG won't be able to allow people to prize prox one out of 10000 greens since a realatively easy hack would be to "randomly" pick prox whenever the player feels like it.

Packets will be effectively unencrypted, so I could send the server anything I want or force my client to receive anything I want (making warping your guy around easy).
Gravitron - Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:14 am
Post subject:
*Watchgreen

EG is full of moderators, all sitting on their buttocks and abusing.
Maybe if they have a person suspected of abusing green prizing they will have something else to focus on other than prizing themselves and sniffing flag locations in an all-moderator-private-team.

Server side can detect twister, like it detect softice.
Server side can force players to download and run 1.35 client.

SubSpace is humans against humans, which also includes staff against cheaters.
About time staff be more privvy and trained to actually do good for their zone community, instead of just act as if they are the leet-messiah.

Thing is, as long as a cheat is done on a massive scale, and affect a certain aspect in an obvious way, then it WILL be caught.
Cyan~Fire - Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:11 am
Post subject:
Ugh. If I was staff, I certainly wouldn't want to *watchgreen players all day.
Cerium - Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:41 am
Post subject:
Gravitron wrote:
*Watchgreen

EG is full of moderators, all sitting on their buttocks and abusing.
Maybe if they have a person suspected of abusing green prizing they will have something else to focus on other than prizing themselves and sniffing flag locations in an all-moderator-private-team.

Server side can detect twister, like it detect softice.
Server side can force players to download and run 1.35 client.

SubSpace is humans against humans, which also includes staff against cheaters.
About time staff be more privvy and trained to actually do good for their zone community, instead of just act as if they are the leet-messiah.

Thing is, as long as a cheat is done on a massive scale, and affect a certain aspect in an obvious way, then it WILL be caught.




Grav... All those little security checks the server does relies on the client sending the correct info. the VIE protocol doesnt encrypt the packet IDs... so a cheat program could filter packets with very little effort, making server side detection of anything nothing more than overhead.

I dont like it any more than you do, but Continuum has done a lot for us simply by changing the method of encryption. If you argue this, youre just being dumb.


Secondly, if you think EG mods cheat, dont play there. Personally, Id rather have mods that just sat around periodicly abusing the *flag command than deal with a swarm of 13 year old pricks with twister. But to each his own...

Finally, the original VIE server is on the SS CD. And I know for a fact GS, MGB and divine werent the only three to buy it.
Cerium - Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:44 am
Post subject:
Oh, and most randomization uses seeds, so technically the server _could_ tell which greens players should be getting
Mr Ekted - Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:08 pm
Post subject:
Cerium wrote:
Oh, and most randomization uses seeds, so technically the server _could_ tell which greens players should be getting


Not so. All clients have different greens. I have proved it. Of course, this is only because greens were not implemented properly in the VIE client.
Cerium - Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:45 pm
Post subject:
Oh... whoops.

Scratch that then.
Gravitron - Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:57 pm
Post subject:
They do?
I did notice that prizes and shrapnel are unsynched in continuum.
However, in VIE I could've sworn that prizes and shrapnels were synched, for the most part.
Like, if you pick cloak, and the other guy is also a cloaker, he also got cloak.
Turrets also shared prizes, and thus forth.

BTW, when I say original VIE, I mean one that has monitor, putfile and etc. working.
Why did you make me read that? Ugh.
*washes hands*
Never press the click here to view button again.
CypherJF - Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:03 pm
Post subject:
Yes, you can get a copy of the VIE subgame off of the SS CD - there is an ISO of it on SSDL.

Again, could go back to VIE but as I had said before, you give up all security . I could care less about LVZ honestly - zone's shouldn't be so dependent on it. :X

But, someone could also just make a new client and hax0r subgame again and make it work w/ theirs...

I know there are a ton of programmers on here who think their leet, but yet ... doesn't take the challenge to make a new client ? ... hmm I know I've tried it and didn't get very far w/ it .. though at the time I didn't really realize what I was getting myself into hehehe
Gravitron - Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:14 pm
Post subject:
Well, mods were put there to begin with for few reasons.
To help introduce newbies onto the game (Q&A).
Manage events (if at all) and proper flow of gameplay.
Bust the hammer on people breaking Jeff's rules (no racism, no cheating).


Nowdays, all they do most of the time is abuse powers out of bordom.
They NEED to start monitoring players around, keep them occupied.
Otherwise, you might as well just fire them, since everything is so "calm", or at the very least hack subgame and cut on their powers (or remove all mods, and put in a bot that will serve certain "staff" people as gateway to its commands, this way you can truely control what people can and cannnot access at which conditions and prevent abuse).


Instead of motivating them to abuse, it'll motivating them to seek out people who cheat to give them the excuse to execute their powers.


Still, with vigilant staff, I doubt people will be able to cheat without being caught (especially that nowdays all it takes is a ?Help and you have mods swarm all over the person scrutinizing him out before he is even aware of it...kind of hard to cheat/get away with it like that).



I know Aaerox could hack subgame like priit did to manipulate it in whatever way he wishes.
He did it to infantry's mini server...(also added a SQL DB -ala biller- to it, and rerouted the entire mod/smod/sysop system authority through it don't even need to enter a pw to login either you are approved and have powers or you're not)
Mr Ekted - Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:24 pm
Post subject:
Gravitron wrote:
They do?
I did notice that prizes and shrapnel are unsynched in continuum.
However, in VIE I could've sworn that prizes and shrapnels were synched, for the most part.


Cont uses the same algo for greens as VIE. I have ripped the VIE ASM for greens to understand how they worked, and tested with 2 clients. The way it is designed, some of the greens will be the same and some will be different. This is not intentional. It's just the way timing and deaths are handled by the protocol.

I use to have screencaps of 2 VIE client radars taken at the same time to show how different the greens are, but I can't find it any more. The bottom line is: if you are an admin using *watchgreen and see a player gets prize that "wasn't there", do not assume they are cheating..unless there's a real abnormal frequency of it, or they get an abnormal distribution of certain types of greens.
CypherJF - Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:28 pm
Post subject:
So, all-in-all, there is no solid solution to determine if someone is cheating... :/
Mr Ekted - Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:44 pm
Post subject:
Nope. Imagine if we had an open-sourced client. All you'd need to do is adjust bomb range by a few pixels when calculating prox. They would take 100's of points less damage, and there would be absolutely no way to detect it since all clients have a "different view of reality".
Gravitron - Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:59 pm
Post subject:
Who ever said ANY kind of cheating has ANY kind of a solid solution?

However, you are reffering to a completely different situation.
Greens that weren't there? I'm not even sure how to take that.
What we're talking about, plain cut, clean and simpe, people ordering specific prizes, and this is exactly what watchgreen was made for.
People who green super/shields/prox too frequently, have god-mode super/shields, l4 weps without flag, greening same prize (guns/bombs/nrg) or certain sequence inorder to get a full ship very fast, etc. things.
And that, an experienced mod would easily be able to follow up on.


And cheating really would only work in SVS zones.
Quite frankly, last I played with lag and what not, it was already there, I mean, you can't tell who IS and who ISNT cheating, so why even bother, heh. ;(
BTW Ekted, continuum protocol was broken and people are already doing that.
Or are they just having a shitty routing dropping packets like baudchaser said?
Who can tell...the devil? new_evil.gif
I know I can't.
Bak - Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:18 pm
Post subject:
Quote:
Server side can detect twister, like it detect softice.
Server side can force players to download and run 1.35 client.


No, the server can't do any of those.
CypherJF - Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:24 pm
Post subject:
The server can only inturpret what the client sends it...
Smong - Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:02 pm
Post subject:
Someone should write some code for asss that checks prize distribution with say a 5% tolerance. I would do it but don't know how to write such a 'compare by percentage' routine.

Also with asss checking for things like people firing bouncing bullets when bouncingbullets=0 in the prizeweight, that won't really work anymore. Because anyone using asss will likely want to use some of it's features like prizing players automatically. There's no hooks for another module to detect that.

Gravitron wrote:
However, in VIE I could've sworn that prizes and shrapnels were synched, for the most part.
Like, if you pick cloak, and the other guy is also a cloaker, he also got cloak.
Team shared prizes shouldn't be modified by the server. Also I'm pretty sure shrapnel is synced in cont. If you set bomb thrust to 0, then use a safe zone and portal to get stationary somewhere and fire at a wall, all the shrap will come out at the same angle.
Mr Ekted - Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:32 pm
Post subject:
If someone is going to cheat well, they will tweak things that can't be tracked within statistical norms. It's not worth it IMO.
Bak - Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:46 pm
Post subject:
chance of greening prox = 0.001%

player plays for 30 minutes picks up 999 prizes then gets prox.

his history of greening prox = 0.1%, which clearly shows he is cheating since his prox probability is 10000% over what it should be... and 10000% is above our 5% limit
Gravitron - Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:37 am
Post subject:
Looking at duels in SVS, shrapnel is largely unsynched in continuum.
Then again, it could be lag.
Bah.


And server can force you to download 1.35, like it can force you to d/l any client in the name of a so called update.
Like it can force you to d/l continuum.

Anyway, attached file from sage.
Bak - Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:49 am
Post subject:
Gravitron wrote:
it can force you to d/l any client


Nope, server has no way to know what client I'm using.
CypherJF - Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:53 am
Post subject:
client tells the server which version it is using, if it mismatches it says you need to download it but.. it never forces it...
Cerium - Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:44 am
Post subject:
damnit... I needd a delete button for when I misread something.
Mine GO BOOM - Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:49 am
Post subject:
Gravitron wrote:
continuum protocol was broken and people are already doing that

The protocol is pretty much open to the public. Now, if you mean the encryption, I have not seen any evidence of this at all.
Mr Ekted - Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:23 am
Post subject:
Gravitron wrote:
Looking at duels in SVS, shrapnel is largely unsynched in continuum.


In VIE and Cont both. They use identical physics. All clients have their own version of reality. The point at which a bomb explodes for each client is based on precisely when each bomb enters prox distance for any ship and if that bomb is moving closer to or farther from its "locked" ship. With all the latencies of player packets, this going to be different for each client. On various clients, the bomb may explode for different ships, early or late, or not at all. And likewise, the shrap from the bomb will be in different locations. Anything bouncing around that is off by even a pixel on 2 different screens can end up 1000's of pixels apart. Ships explode for no reason to you, etc.
Gravitron - Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:27 am
Post subject:
My problem wasn't ships exploding around me, but ships around me refusing to explode. biggrin.gif
Enter the Dragon, err, Leviathan...


Well, during VIE shrapnel always seemed to work quite fine to me.
Also, in continuum the prox triggers seem to malefunction quite frequently and many oddities occured whereas they should not had, compared to past VIE experience.


Doesn't the server do more than just receive a version number?
I mean bak, are you saying that Jeff is korean grade quality?
Server also look at checksum and CRC I believe.
Infantry's server, at the least, seemed very hard to fool with faked files.
Gravitron - Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:32 am
Post subject:
Mine GO BOOM wrote:
[..]


The protocol is pretty much open to the public. Now, if you mean the encryption, I have not seen any evidence of this at all.



That's just the point, if someone went onto the trouble of doing it, would he use obvious cheats? of course not.
So, if we don't know about it, it doesn't *hurt* us and so - we really don't *care*.

And if it is in public, or seen in public, its bust down is imminent.


As for deterrance, zero tolerance policy with severe penalty.
Now that people can't just so as easily get around bans, or net bans for that matter, they won't be as quick to toss their carrier just to see if they can cheat.
The premise of a swift and harsh punishment will overcome the temptation.
Mr Ekted - Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:14 am
Post subject:
Gravitron wrote:
Well, during VIE shrapnel always seemed to work quite fine to me.
Also, in continuum the prox triggers seem to malefunction quite frequently and many oddities occured whereas they should not had, compared to past VIE experience.


I agree with you. There are physics bugs in Cont, but the intention is that they are exact. Initially, I think the motivation was to allow both clients so that acceptance was easier. Now it seems pointless to try to be compatible at all. If we've got all the Cont source, we should be adding whatever features would be useful to expand the game and modifying the protocol to match it.

Gravitron wrote:
Doesn't the server do more than just receive a version number?
Server also look at checksum and CRC I believe.


The server only knows what the client tells it. Any fake client (or modified client) can also tell the server what it wants to hear. This what bots do; they pretend to be VIE 1.34.

The server requires the client to checksum the code, the map, and the arena settings every two minutes. The checksum algorithms use a "key" from the server so that a potentially fake client cannot simply pre-calculate what the checksums will be; they must calculate them on demand. This prevents modifying those areas of memory while the client is running, but does nothing to protect the client from changes to other areas (things that are unique to each client), which is why VIE client was so vulnerable to Twister. Cont makes some attempt to protect other sensitive data, but it's virtually impossible to protect yourself completely from a seriously motivated hacker.

The changes to the protocol for Cont are pretty much limited to identity, encrpytion, and LVZ stuff. Underneath all that, the packets look the same.
Gravitron - Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:27 am
Post subject:
Well, and this is just being devil's advocate, if we have such a serious hacker, who would go the lengths to be able to create a cheat, and one that will be so subtle it will be virtually undetected, and none but him even know of this...hell, let the kid enjoy the prize of his hard work.
If winning the game means so much to him, let him have it, I pitty him IRL must have one hell lousy life.

And still, he would lose to upper-tier zero latency duelers, or those who somehow got such huge spikes/lag without being put to spec that they simply *devour* with their lag whatever packets you throw on them and ignore damage.
Cyan~Fire - Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:48 am
Post subject:
Here are the two options.



Ekted wrote:
Cont makes some attempt to protect other sensitive data

Yeah. How is it that I can attach VC++6 to subspace.bin and still chat and read the memory, but the instant I try with Continuum it exits? icon_sad.gif
Bak - Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:37 pm
Post subject:
Quote:
are you saying that Jeff is korean grade quality


what's that supposed to mean?


--

It's not a big deal if one guy cheats... but what If he realeases the cheat to the public, and let them tweak how much they cheat... every time someone lags you'll suspect he's a cheater because it would be so rampent.
Cyan~Fire - Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:27 pm
Post subject:
Korean? Crappy? Sub-human? Come on, Bak, we all know this deep inside. The Koreans are the cause of all our problems!

No dogs or koreans allowed to program SubSpace.
Gravitron - Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:09 am
Post subject:
Everytime someone lags it's already suspecion of cheating, because lagging is the best cheat of all.
Get a good routing to the server, have 0-10ms, run bittorent for a nice 100-200ms spikes, and voila, you have achived godmode.


And if a cheat will be in public, then it'll be whoopassed.
i88gerbils - Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:27 am
Post subject:
Couldn't you have a command that turned on a "position watch" or something that might compare movement speeds for one player if things were suspicious?
Bak - Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:35 pm
Post subject:
sure, I made a ASSS modules that does that.

But of course if they use something like speedhack, the timestamps in the packets will be off too so everything will look legal.

You could (Like the module does) use server timestamps too... and this detected speedhack correctly... but there are other issues (warping, getting bricked, portals, rockets, attaching, or even large differences between packet arrival time) which have to be accounted for.
Gravitron - Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:21 pm
Post subject:
Well, how about have certain "harmless" parts of the client in public.
So people can contribute CVS.
While the rest of the client run something like self-designed hackshield to have additional assistance to prevent any cheating.

As for time stamps/speedhack, I know Jeff put measures in place (server side I believe?) to detect and ban them.
Maybe that's what the bios clocking/packet timer detection was for.



Oh and smong, you don't need to be at full stop, you can be moving as well, it has nothing to do with it.
Randomized or 360" shrapnel is a setting, nothing to do with synchronization.
What I'm talking about is people seeing shrapnel same as you do.
I often see duels where people ignore shrapnels bouncing at them.
CypherJF - Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:46 pm
Post subject:
I know Jeff implemented auto-banning in infantry etc etc to offset these types of cheats;however, this got Sony into trouble because people were paying to play and by being falsely banned for 24hrs means that customer paying for service they weren't able to use (or osmething like that) and so I think they reverted it out... (i could be wrong)
Smong - Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:41 pm
Post subject:
@Gravitron
I was just saying that when shrapnel is set to random, then there is actually some kind of psuedo random thing going on (which can be proved by firing two bombs from the same location at a wall).

This means shrap angles should be synced on all clients. But would only really work if the bomb exploded when it hit a wall. As Mr Ekted says all players have a slightly different version of reality, so a bomb exploding by hitting a ship might mean the source of the shrapnel is off by a few pixels.
Mr Ekted - Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:44 pm
Post subject:
It might even be that random shrap is different on every client! Although it would be possible to have it be random but the same on all clients by using the bomb's original timestamp as the key. Still, as Cypher said, they would still be off many pixels, and because of bouncing and ends of walls, could end up in totally different places.
Smong - Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:47 pm
Post subject:
Cypher said that? I thought you did.
Mr Ekted wrote:
Anything bouncing around that is off by even a pixel on 2 different screens can end up 1000's of pixels apart. Ships explode for no reason to you, etc.

I'm sure the key to the rng is the x/y pos (or at least contains that), because of the firing two bombs from the same location thing.

Edit:

Mr Ekted - Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:02 pm
Post subject:
Ah, good find.
Cerium - Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:22 am
Post subject:
X/Y as in where the bomb was fired from, or where it exploded?

If its the latter, then wouldnt shrap almost always be out of sync?
Mine GO BOOM - Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:35 am
Post subject:
Cerium wrote:
X/Y as in where the bomb was fired from, or where it exploded?

If its the latter, then wouldnt shrap almost always be out of sync?


Both. Turn off bomb thrusts, warpto near a door, and fire bombs at it. Shrapnel will be static on the door. When the door opens, and you hit the wall behind it, the shrapnel will be in a new static pattern. At least, this is how it was in VIE client back when I gave it a try (more fun when learning about *super).

The original idea behind random shrapnel was to fix this problem. With static, evenly spaced shrapnel, a few pixels will make a huge difference in seeing if someone eat a shrapnel or not. With random, you can always just go to yourself "maybe he saw the random shrapnel differently", and let it go at that.
Phyran - Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:51 am
Post subject:
random sharpnels arent really random..if u shoot the same bomb at the same angle at a wall spot it always create the same exact sharpnel pattern
Cerium - Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:48 pm
Post subject:
Hrmmm... wonder why no one opted to go with something a bit more reliable... like what ekted suggested a few posts back... atleast the shrap would always be the same on everyones machine...
Anonymous - Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:47 am
Post subject:
SOE didn't "get onto troubles", not over INF anyway.
The auto banning was a bit hyperactive and oversuspecious, it was only doing a few hours/one day netbans.
It was basically meant for a small delay suspension while admins reviewing the log to make decision if its system fault or you go on life time ban for cheating.
Most of these bans were made due to speedhacks, and they got what they had coming.
CypherJF - Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:37 am
Post subject:
most bans affected modem users-- there are parts of the world where broadband isnt available.. >: (
Gravitron - Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:16 pm
Post subject:
Now, no one want to see THESE people playing. tongue.gif

I mean, last I looked, lag settings were so restrictive...
Yankee really didn't want me to play, haha.

So, might as well not play at all anyway, being banned isn't bad.
Yankee used to try and ban me for years, and I would laugh and bypass it.
Cerium - Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:48 am
Post subject:
Gravitron wrote:

So, might as well not play at all anyway, being banned isn't bad.
Yankee used to try and ban me for years, and I would laugh and bypass it.


Youre a model citizen grav.
Cyan~Fire - Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:53 pm
Post subject:
But also remember that only Grav can bypass bans. Back in the good ol' days of VIE, before BanG, Grav could ban anybody by mac ID and they'd be gone forever.
Cerium - Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:54 am
Post subject:
What??
EdTheInvincible - Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:33 pm
Post subject:
he means that only Grav has 2 computers.
Purge - Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:53 pm
Post subject:
With 2 different ISPs? icon_confused.gif
Bak - Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:16 pm
Post subject:
elux, how's the game comming?
Gravitron - Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:04 am
Post subject:
Huh?
freakmonger - Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:54 pm
Post subject:
Any updates?
Donkano - Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:18 pm
Post subject:
Grav@Work wrote:
SOE didn't "get onto troubles", not over INF anyway.
The auto banning was a bit hyperactive and oversuspecious, it was only doing a few hours/one day netbans.
It was basically meant for a small delay suspension while admins reviewing the log to make decision if its system fault or you go on life time ban for cheating.
Most of these bans were made due to speedhacks, and they got what they had coming.


SpeedHack is for non-NT systems. Since the majority of people who use Windows are running on NT, it would be considered as Gear.
Solo Ace - Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:26 am
Post subject:
And how is that related to anything?
Anonymous - Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:38 pm
Post subject: IsDebuggerPresent
Continuum exits when you try to debug it because continuum continously calls IsDebuggerPresent and exits if it finds a debugger attached to it
Cyan~Fire - Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:59 am
Post subject:
But since a debugger should break all threads immediately, it shouldn't even notice. Right?
Anonymous - Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:14 am
Post subject:
I wrote a little program that calls IsDebuggerPresent() and displays a messagebox if IsDebuggerPresent() returns a nonzero integer. I then attached to the program and the messagebox was not displayed. That means that only calling IsDebuggerPresent() periodically does not allow you to prevent a debugger from attaching to your program.

How does a program prevent you from debugging it using IsDebuggerPresent()?
Code: Show/Hide
#define _WIN32_WINNT 0x0400
#include "stdio.h"
#include "windows.h"

int main(int argc, char* argv[])
{
   int x = 0;
   printf("hello");
   CreateThread(0,0,DebugCheckThread,0,0,0);
   while(1)
   {
      x++;
   }

   return 0;
}
DWORD WINAPI DebugCheckThread(LPVOID pParam)
{
   int flag = 0;
   while(1)
   {
      if((IsDebuggerPresent() == 1) && (flag == 0))
      {
         MessageBox(0,"Can the debugger stop this from being displayed?", "?", MB_OK);
         flag = 1;
      }
   }
}

Anonymous - Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:39 am
Post subject:
I ran that program and then attempted to attach to it with vc++ debugger and vc++ froze for a while then the program displayed the messagebox. me thinks calling IsDebuggerPresent() in a loop works.
Ori Klein - Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:22 pm
Post subject:
Blarg.
Forget it.
You can't ever stop debugging.
Try to stop the common ones, but eventualy someone will find how to get through.
OutlawGene - Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:29 pm
Post subject:
http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/index.html

These are downloadable games made by pritt and some of his friends.

They have some interesting file types and some are similar looking to continuum's file types. I'm not sure if you can actually learn or do anything
with them but maybe they explain how our continuum's file types were created. I only looked at a few of these about a month ago and I saw the file extension .lvs and .snd I believe. Hah maybe theirs even a way to debuild and build the files. I'm no programmer so I can't do this. But it would be interesting if it was possible...I guess. This is just something I came across.
Mr Ekted - Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:22 pm
Post subject:
The only true "Continuum file types" are the LVZ and SKN. All the other types used by Subspace are standards. JeffP just used a different extension (BM2, WA2) to make them stand out.
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